From Isolation to Innovation

From Isolation to Innovation

Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
If you love exploring how to do school differently so you can make a legendary impact on your campus, then you’re in the right place. I’m Danny Bauer, and this is the Better Leaders, Better Schools Podcast, the original Ruckus Maker podcast for visionary leaders, innovators, and rebels in education. Thanks to Ruckus Makers just like you, this podcast ranks in the top 5% of over 3 million worldwide shows. In today’s conversation, I speak with Veronica Holyoke, and we cover topics like defeating imposter syndrome and reconnecting with joy in her work. We talk about how Veronica flipped her mindset from one that was quite challenging in relation to colleagues to one that is super smooth and creates even more value on campus. And then, of course, this is a case study podcast episode.

We’re going to talk a bit about how she’s grown through her participation in the Ruckus Maker Mastermind. I will reveal the punchline right now. In less than 90 days after joining the Ruckus Maker Mastermind, Veronica was named the assistant principal of the year for her district and is up for assistant principal of the year for her state. So we are cheering for her and wishing her the best. Once again, thanks for listening and we’ll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsors. Hey Ruckus Maker, I’ll make this quick. If you’re listening to this message right now, you’re missing out.

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That’s what we’re creating at Teach FX, teachers record audio of a lesson, and then they receive an AI powered report with instructional insights such as, how much are my students talking? How much am I talking? How can I use wait time or questioning to create space for my students to learn out loud? Learn how Teach Fx could help your teachers get students talking. Visit teachfx.com/ruckus. That’s teachfx.com/ruckus. What does your school cafeteria make you think of? Chaos? Headaches? Quality food? Quest stands a part in the school food service industry as a partner that provides high quality food for your students. This is food you can be proud of. Learn more at Quest Food management [email protected], or follow questfood on social media. That’s questfms.com dot. All right, and I’m here today with Veronica. Welcome to the show.

05:01

Veronica
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to talk to you and talk about all the things.

05:07
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
I’m thrilled, personally thrilled you’re a newer member, and we got connected because I had the really great opportunity to come speak to your district, and that was awesome. And then we did the Mastermind and you emailed me the other day and it was like, whoa, that’s a cool result. And we’ll get to that. I don’t want to lead with that. We’re going to whet the listener’s appetite. But I was so proud of you. And as I mentioned in the pre recordingI think you’ll get value reflecting on even in the short time your growth before the Ruckus Maker listening. I really want to. I want you to look for where you see yourself in Veronica’s story, because the things she’s wrestled with, things she’s been able to accomplish, that might be your story, too. And if it is, then we have a place for you? Without any further ado, Veronica, welcome. And how would you like to describe yourself to the listener?

06:01
Veronica
I am an assistant principal at an elementary school in Jordan district, which is in the valley of Salt Lake City. This is my third year working as an assistant principal, but this is my 24th year working as an educator. I’m just a born educator. I knew I was going to be an educator at the age of four. On our shag green carpet in our basement, I put out little pages that had people’s names on it. That was my seating chart. I’ve always known that I was going to do this. Didn’t know I’d get into administration. That came later. But I’ll be a lifelong educator in some sort of capacity, so that’s a little bit about me.

06:45
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
And what was life like before you joined the Ruckus Maker? Mastermind.

06:51
Veronica
Oh, my goodness. I’m one of those. I live in Utah, but I’m from the east coast, and I have moved around a lot. I thought I would be that second grade teacher in the same classroom, in the same building for 50 years. And my story just changes all the time where I’m led. I didn’t necessarily expect to get into administration. I thought I would just be in the classroom. And so once I got into administration, although I had really good ideas on things that I felt like I could do to help a whole entire school, I was an instructional coach before I became an administrator, and so I saw things differently than I did in the classroom. And then for the first time ever, I was like, ‘oh, I could help fix this, or I could have this idea and how I could do this.’ But then once I got into administration, I just didn’t expect for it to be as lonely as it was. I didn’t expect to be like an emergency room doctor all the time, waiting for the emergency to happen. I didn’t expect to see all the trauma that I was going to see, and I just struggled. You and I had a conversation in December where I was like, how do I find the joy in terms of doing this career for more than just a year? I really want this to work out. I want longevity in this. That’s where my head was before I joined the Mastermind and also even in my personal life.

08:23
Veronica
My husband was in a really serious car accident and is now disabled. And it became this question of, ‘well, I can’t have work be traumatic and home be traumatic.’ I was looking for an opportunity to build my administrative leadership in a capacity that would also then help me be a better wife at home, because I felt like if I could improve one area, then the other area would then improve. And then all just roads led to being a Ruckus Maker and joining the Mastermind.

08:57
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
We’re lucky to have you, for sure. When it comes to school leadership, what do you think the biggest challenge or struggle has been?

09:07
Veronica
The biggest struggles? When you’re in the classroom, teach when you’re in your own classroom. I was super organized. I had my day planned to the last possible second. I was cracker jack management, and I differentiated and I did all the things. But suddenly, when you’re leading, we have a school of 700 kids and about 100 adults. A lot of that control is gone, and then you have to figure out other ways to, as I say, go around the barn. You have to figure out the road a little bit in a different way, but there’s no roadmap. When you go to college and you get your master’s in this or a licensure or whatever, they don’t necessarily teach you. How are you going to de-escalate the really hard, kiddo? Or how are you going to have that really hard conversation with a teacher or a parent? There’s no roadmap. And so not having the roadmap is the hardest thing. Where you get a bachelor’s of science in education, there’s a scientific process to it where administrative ness is not necessarily that way. Although maybe there is. I don’t know.

10:14
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
I think that’s why people like tools and frameworks and stuff that I try to come up with. But it’s all about navigating the ambiguity. Isn’t it? So that’s the thing. It’s constantly changing, it’s constantly moving, and we just try to meet you where you are and be as helpful as possible. When you came to the Ruckus Maker in Mastermind, Veronica, was there something that needed to change, or was it just a desire to grow or some kind of catalyst? I’m curious.

10:43
Veronica
Well, there were a couple things. So you came to our back to school administrative conference and did our keynote, but you also spent the whole day with us. And I don’t know if listeners know this, but I did not expect this. You signed a copy of your Mastermind book for every single administrator at that conference. So that spoke.

11:03
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Fun fact, though, that was the hardest part of the conference, because there’s a lot of. There’s a lot of leaders there.

11:08
Veronica
I know, there’s at least 100 assistant principals. I don’t know how many principals.

11:12
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
There’s a few hundred copies. But what I appreciate about your admin team from the central office there was a. I was, like, on the factory line, you know what I mean? And they were just cranking butts at me. My forearm was sore.

11:25
Veronica
It meant a lot to us. So that spoke to me, number one. And then before school started, I was reading the book Mastermind, and there were a lot of quotes in that book that just spoke to me, like, leadership is lonely, and if you could find a safe space to have these conversations, and you had a lot of case studies in your book that talked about how that’s what people were getting from the Mastermind. And I had been looking into otheradministrative coaching type groups or whatever to join that just really spoke to me. And I think also because I got to do the activities that you were doing, like the hot seat activity that we did at our back to school training.

12:09
Veronica
So I’d seen some of the things that you were doing, and I just felt like. And then I just had this moment one day where everything is hard, home is hard, school is hard, and I just realized that I wonder if I. Okay, so I wanted to also use your word, Ruckus Maker. And I thought, well, it’s an automatic no if I. If I don’t ask. So I reached out to my area superintendent and then our superintendent and said, can I join the Mastermind and use my professional development funds to get me started? And especially my husband beingso injured. I didn’t know if were going to be able to travel. And it’s. So that’s kind of how that all came about. And they just said, yeah, that’s a great idea. So that was kind of the steps that led up.

12:56
Veronica
And then I applied, and then you called me from London airport, which, again, was like, this guy.

13:03
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Oh, yeah, that’s right.

13:04
Veronica
So invested in this program that you. So just all of the signs were there that, yeah, this is what I needed to do.

13:14
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
My wife has family over there in the UK, so we’re there a lot. So that’s fun. I’ve called so many people from airports but it’s like it’s a great time to connect. I don’t think I knew that you were exploring other opportunities for administrative support. You ended up joining the Ruckus Maker Mastermind, and I guess I’m kind of curious, like why us and why not the other programs?

13:43
Veronica
Again, the book really talked about things like, what if professional development for administrators could look this way? And that spoke to me, too, because of a lot of your methods. I’m the type of person that if I go to a conference, I want to get something I can take back and immediately apply in my classroom or school or whatever. And that had happened at the conference that I attended with you, but your book also a lot about that. So I knew that there were going to be nuggets, but what I expected and what I got were not necessarily the same. I expected more of this is how you have that conversation with this angry teacher, or this is.

14:25
Veronica
And we talk about those things, too, but it really became, and this is why I’m going to stick with it, because it became about a deeper dive into who Veronica is as a human being person. And what lessons do I need to analyze and learn from so that I can find longevity in this work, because this work is so important. And that’s what I didn’t expect and that’s. That’s what I’ve found. So that’s the nugget.

14:55
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
So that was a bit of a surprise, I guess that’s cool. Was there a fear or anything like a reservation around joining?

15:04
Veronica
Yeah, and that’s why I hadn’t joined anything else, because I just felt if it’s not a safe space, then if I wasn’t going to be able to ask the tough questions and be real and be heard and be listened to, that was. I thought there’s just no point. But again, there were some really good examples in your book of how that wasn’t the case. And I didn’t feel it. I felt like from your conference that of course we were going to be listening, because that’s the whole point of the hot seat. If protocol, if you’ve never heard of that, you need to learn about that because that’s a whole other listening. I felt like I’d be listened to, but I was afraid that wouldn’t.

15:46
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
That makes sense. Again, your central office team really liked that hot seat protocol, too. They told me that they legit had been talking about some problem for like six months and solved it in 15 minutes once I taught him the protocol. And I asked April, I was like, well, why? Why is that? And it was the listening piece.

16:06
Veronica
Listening.

16:08
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
She’s like we actually deeply listen. You slowed us down. We actually listened to each other. And then the results, the answers were just right. There. So that’s cool that it has worked out for you, too. What was it like? You’re reading about it. I come into Utah, speak. I call you from London, then you join. What was it like when you first started?

16:33
Veronica
It was a little scary. I joined the women’s and leadership group, which really spoke to me. You were listing off all the options, and that one really spoke to me. It was intimidating, but everybody was so welcoming. And I’m in the group with Karine, who is one of your leaders for your podcast. And so that was. So there was a little bit of a moment of. Oh, my gosh. Like, star struckness. A little bit

17:02
Veronica
Wow. But she was so welcoming. Everybody was so welcoming. And I never feel like I have a dumb question or I never feel like I’m just moaning and groaning or whatever, but the structure of the sessions is. I also really think that we don’t just moan and groan. We have an agenda. And the thing I love about it the most as a former instructional coach, is the way the questions are asked. I feel like I’ve never been a part of anything where better questions were asked, and it’s really actually helped me improve my own level of questioning when I’m in tough situations with people, kids, adults, whatever. So the questioning is super fabulous. And I just knew. I knew right at the end that this was the place to be. I just didn’t.

17:57
Veronica
Again, I didn’t expect, necessarily, the deep dive into my own soul.

18:01
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
That was that surprise. And important. And I remember you talking about how you were hoping, hey, my administrator life improves. That might spill over into my personal life. You’re welcome to say if that happened or not. But I can say, Gene Parks, one of our coaches, but he was a longtime member, as well, and I always was so proud because one day he told me ‘Danny, I’m definitely a better principal, but I’ve become a better husband and a better father.’ And I was like, wow, tell me more. So That’s the thing. I think when we’re in a space like that with those questions and then asking who is Veronica? It’s so much more than just school, but we discuss school. You know what I mean?

18:44
Veronica
My husband is a. He’s a gigantic fan of the whole thing because he’s just seen me grow, and even just. I’ve only been in this. I don’t even know how many months. But it’s been months. It’s not even been a year. And he’s seen me grow, so he gets excited by the little nuggets that I have learned or that I share. And then, because I think a really big difference that you made was when I had my one on one with you in December, and I said, what do I do to help find joy? And you suggested I meditate, which I love meditation, but you, meditate on loving kindness and that. Oh, man. So now I meditate, like, three times a day, and that has been a huge help. Again and then that. Calmer.

19:30
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Can you share in your own words what that means? That means to you, like, loving, kind. The listener might not have ever heard that, too. And they might be going, oh, Danny’s running a cult..

19:39
Veronica
Yeah, no, no. It’s just a way. It’s a way to get quiet with yourself and focus on. No, there’s no distraction. So it’s just you. And you’re just focusing on ways that you can send love to yourself just in your own mind and maybe focus on things that you like about yourself, but then also just send, like, good energy out to the world into your school and your home. And it’s. And for some reason, it just connected with me, and I found a lot of peace with that. When I go to school, I’m much calmer. I go home, I’m just so much calmer.

20:19
Veronica
And then I think I can also find it. It’s helped me find the joy and to be more loving with everybody and to recognize that, well, everybody’s going through something, everybody’s having a hard time. It’s just made it easier to help and support everybody in my school.

20:36
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
It makes total sense. Can I add a couple of things to that, too? I don’t want to nerd out too much about it. So this practice has been around thousands and thousands of years. So it survived that long. There must be something to it. And there’s, like, sort of a common refrain almost, if you think of it as, like, a chorus and a song. But the most, I guess, typical one would be, may you be happy. May you be healthy. May you be filled with peace and you being somebody else, or may I. Right. And as you mentioned, I don’t know that I prescribed three times a day. Like, that’s probably what you picked, what worked for you. I love the part that you said. It’s helped you be more compassionate, understanding, and loving towards people you serve. It’s really hard. Like, listen, school leadership is going to be tough.

21:26
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
You’re going to, some days, have less patience than others, but it’s really hard not to have this open heart. And presence and energy that you want to have as a leader. It’s really hard to not have that. If you’ve been literally thinking about your staff, your students, even the challenging ones. Right. May you be happy, healthy, and filled with peace. And then the thing happens, and it’s like, okay, I don’t want to, like, strangle you right now. Why? I actually want you to succeed. But let’s see what’s going on here. So I’m glad. I don’t know if I prescribe it to everyone. I’m a big fan, but I just knew for some reason, like, my intuition knew that it would work for you, and I’m glad it has.

22:07
Veronica
It’s made such a difference. So. Agreed?

22:11
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Yeah. Cool. Well, so you shared a few things, like nuggets and takeaways. Anything else? Like most. Like you’d identify as, like, a most helpful lesson or takeaway.

22:24
Veronica
I think that I hadn’t really necessarily considered the terms Ruckus Maker. And also, I love your expression. A good idea is great, but action is better. And I might have misworded it, but I didn’t really necessarily consider those two things with administration. When we have our weekly Mastermind meetings, somebody’s always in the hot seat, which is really nice, because then you can come and bring a problem that you’re having, and then you always get nuggets from the other person. And I think just by hearing what other people are going through. So there’s people in my group that are from New Jersey and Canada and Wyoming and Utah and all over the place, hearing that we’re all having similar things, I think that’s also helped me to realize that I’m not alone. I’m not in this alone.

23:22
Veronica
And then to hear the ideas and the suggestions that are given as a result of the hot seat are applicable to myself. So I am still getting those nuggets on simple things that we can try and do. And then Karin has a Google Doc that she shares all the ideas and the strategies and all those things. So there’s always really great takeaways, and that’s helped me, especially the idea that actions are better. I feel like I’ve been less afraid. I’m lucky. I work with a principal that lets me just fly. And I get to do all of the things that I want to do. I’m so blessed with that. But the Mastermind has helped me to actually then put action towards the items and not be afraid either to do those things.

24:14
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Good for you.

24:16
Veronica
Karine, she talks about what’s your word of the year? And so we did that at the beginning of January, and that was super helpful, too. So mine is that I would like to be a manifester, and I’d like to manifest my ideas. And again, that’s not anything I would have gotten if I just been figuring this out on my own. And then over the weekend, I put together with my husband a vision board. Nice. Of, like, what I want, my future and what we want. Like, I want to get my PhD from the University of Edinburgh. So. Hey, Scotland.

24:54
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
So put me in the suitcase, please.

24:56
Veronica
There you go. Yeah, you can come visit. So, again, that’s all it’s just been because of this tremendous opportunity that you’ve given me.

25:06
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
How about the hardest part? I know it’s not perfect, and you mentioned, like just being a little bit nervous on the incoming in, but has there been anything else that’s been hard to use with the Mastermind?

25:19
Veronica
Hard to use with the Mastermind? No. No. I think sometimes I feel like I still have the imposter syndrome, and the Mastermind helps you to break that down, but I still have a little bit of that. I wish there was a way to have the Mastermind be within my district. You know, that would be nice because I feel like, oh, if only I could get more of my ap friends or my principal friends involved. I mean, that would be super helpful. But other than that, no, there’s only super good things. I know you’re going to say this, that I was nominated by my district for assistant principal of the year, but I do wonder, and I know that’s because of the Mastermind, but I don’t actually know what I did to earn it. So I’m still working on self awareness. I don’t know if that even makes sense, but so I still will struggle with that.

26:20
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
It’ll be nice to hear what. What they have to say. Right. For the nominations and stuff. I think it’s pretty typical for leaders to. I don’t. I don’t think it’s an awareness thing. I think in education, people don’t want to be seen as bragging. Or out shining. The thing that helped me get around this. So this is for you, Veronica, and the Ruckus Maker. Also listening. My coach once told me, it’s not bragging if it’s true. You’re not bragging. You’re just telling the truth. Like, this is something you’ve accomplished or whatever. And if you come from that sort of place and again, on a mission to serve and help others, not like, oh, look at me, then it’s cool to be able to share those kinds of things. I wasn’t asking you, like, what’s a big win and big winAP of the year is pretty cool. And I think you’ve been nominated at the state level, too.

27:16
Veronica
Yeah. So then winners go to state. So we will go in a couple weeks. So, yeah, so tremendous. Didn’t ever expect in my third year, yeah. Doing this work. But again, the idea, the actions are better. Like, that’s just changed my life.

27:32
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Yeah, got it. How’s life different now? So we kind of started off this conversation, like, what it was like, but how’s it different?

27:39
Veronica
I don’t feel, I don’t feel the imposter syndrome as much any longer. I feel like I can find longevity in this work, which is really exciting. And I know that will come partly to remain in the Mastermind. There’s, like, things in my life where I’m like, I’m always going to do this. I’m always going to do this. While I always want to be in the Mastermind. I think that will help. Think that now I even have, again, I made that vision board over the weekend, and I even have more that I would like to do. I know this isn’t, this is not just the end. And before I started the Mastermind, it was just like, how am I going to survive until the end of the year? And then what am I going to do after?

28:29
Veronica
Like, how am I going to survive till Christmas break? Or how am I going to survive? So that’s been a huge change. And then that’s also helped again at home with my husband’s accident and some other family issues that we have going on. I feel like I have some better tools to overcome some of those really hard times. Or if we’re having a hard day at home with my poor husband and he’s in pain or whatever, I can send him loving kindness or what have you. That’s a huge difference. I was really struggling before. Like, I would dread going to bed because then we’d have to get up and go to work and I don’t have that anymore. I don’t dread emergencies anymore. I don’t like clockwatch all day anymore because I just think about what action am I going to take and who am I going to help? And that I know now I’m supposed to do this work. That’s the other thing, is that the Mastermind has allowed me to kind of get out of my own way and now I know I’m supposed to do this and because I’m clearly doing something right. So supposed to do yeah. So I don’t know if I would have got, I don’t know how long it would have taken me to get there and I don’t know if I would have gotten there on my own.

29:44
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
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30:45
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
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31:57
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
What I appreciate and admire about that story, too, is the external circumstances haven’t changed. You’ve gotten support externally, but internally, you’ve changed. And so now how you relate to the same stuff, it isn’t the same. The other reason is that people are running for the exit ramp and the exit door in our industry, and you’re thriving. Because you’ve done the inner work.

32:25
Veronica
Right, right. The book. The first book, when I joined, I think it was called Reboot and Jerry Kalana. I struggled because I was like, why are we reading a book about a guy in the middle of the wilderness? I did not understand, but now I get it. I totally understand. So the reflecting part, I was afraid of it, and I fought it, but now I relish it and I look forward to it, which is why I try to meditate three times a day, because it’s helpful.

32:57
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
I didn’t realize he’s, like, really into that, too. I’ve learned that more as I’ve learned more about Jerry. Jerry Kalanos, who we’re talking about. He has a podcast called Reboot. The book we read was a reboot. He has a newer book that just came out. I forget the title, but this, like, I think if I was ever on his show or met him, I would, like, seriously be at a loss for words kind of thing, because he’s had a huge impact on my life. I’m glad that book did land well for the majority of our members.

33:24
Veronica
Well, and it’s fun now to give teachers those tools, too. We had a staff member who lost a parent, and I was able to share a podcast about grieving over the loss of a family member. So It’s just been nice because I’ve been able to dig deep into my own personal life, then I’ve been able to share and get a little vulnerable, which is one of our concepts we talked about in our Mastermind yesterday. So that’s been really nice also. And then to be able to see them and then have deeper conversations about real life stuff with the staff, that’s been tremendous. And then to see their growth in those areas, too, has been really fun.

34:11
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
All right, so, PhD in Edinburgh. Anything else you’re excited about next?

34:17
Veronica
Yes, and this is going to be part of what you’re going to ask me at the end, but I would love to be the leader of a lab school. Well, okay. So, first I’d like to get my PhD and do the latest research. I feel like one of the things I didn’t know I was going to be really good at was all of the behavior work that we have to do with kiddos and teachers and parents. So I wouldn’t mind doing the latest research and the next great behavior techniques and then run a lab school, not just behavior techniques, but could be academic as well, instructional techniques and what have you, and then have a lab school where we practice the latest research. And so that would be fabulous to do. Love that. So those are the two things I’m thinking about doing.

35:08
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Big things.

35:09
Veronica
Big things. Ruckus Maker things.

35:12
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Ruckus Maker.

35:13
Veronica
For sure, yes.

35:15
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
What advice would you have, Veronica, for somebody just like you before you joined?

35:21
Veronica
I would give you the advice that, well, I will tell you firsthand that Danny Bauer will bend over backwards to make sure that you’re heard and you’re listened to. He’ll call you from London when he’s on the way home from a funeral. I think you were coming home from a funeral. And he will also do everything like, you really listened to the situation that I was facing at home, because now I’m the financial breadwinner, and you really listen to that. And so just know that Danny and whoever you’re the leader of your group, they will do everything that they can to support you in your personal life and your work life, to figure out whatever it is that you need, wherever you’re at in your administrative leadership.

36:13
Veronica
So if you’re nervous, then please just know that’s coming from somebody that is saying that from the heart, because that’s with my experience.

36:22
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Yeah. And I tell new members, veteran members, and there’s people who take advantage and there’s people who don’t. And that’s all good. But I say call or text anytime you need anything. The other day, I won’t reveal who it was. They were having a crisis in their front office, and the person texted me, and I called them back, like 30 seconds. I just happened to have some space in my calendar, but that’s part of how I’ve designed my life so that space exists. So I wasn’t on a call, I wasn’t in a meeting, I wasn’t coaching somebody. So I called the person. He’s like, oh, you really call, just thinking, why would I tell you to call or text anytime, right, if I didn’t want you to call or text? So we got over that and then solved the problem. But it was funny.

37:05
Veronica
When you called me from London, my phone said Danny Bauer. And I was like, Danny Bauer’s calling me. What?

37:11
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Nice. Veronica, how would you describe your Mastermind experience in a word or a phrase.

37:18
Veronica
A word or a phrase. Life changing and personal and professional life changing.

37:25
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
And my last question is there anything else?

37:29
Veronica
No, only just thank you for all that you do for everyone. And thank you for pushing us to be Ruckus Makers so that we can do the hard work.

37:42
Chief Ruckus Maker Danny
Thanks for listening to the better leaders Better Schools podcast row Ruckus Maker how would you like to lead with confidence, swap exhaustion for energy, turn your critics into cheerleaders and so much more? The Ruckus Maker Mastermind is a world class leadership program designed for growth minded school leaders just like you. Go to betterleadersbetterschools.com Mastermind, learn more about our program and fill out the application. We’ll be in touch within 48 hours to talk about how we can help you be even more effective. And by the way, we have cohorts that are diverse and mixed up. We also have cohorts just for women in leadership and a BIPOC only cohort as well. When you’re ready to level up, go to betterleadersbetterschools.com Mastermind and fill out the application. Thanks again for listening to the show. Bye for now and go make a ruckus.