Making the Invisible, Visible

Thanks for hitting play. If you love exploring how to ‘do school different’ so you can make a legendary impact on your campus, then you’re in the right place. I’m Danny Bauer, and this is the better leaders, better Schools podcast, the original Ruckus Maker podcast for visionary leaders, innovators, and rebels in education. Thanks to Ruckus Makers just like you, this podcast ranks in the top of over 3 million worldwide shows. In today’s conversation, I spoke with doctor Chara N. Willeford, and we covered topics like principal pipelines and sustainable leadership development, how to conquer the imposter syndrome, why thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking, and how to make the invisible visible. So once again, thanks for listening, and we’ll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsor. Hey, Ruckus Maker, I’ll make this quick.

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Dr Chara
Hello. Hello. Glad to be here.

04:08
Danny
Glad to have you, too. We’ve connected, and I’ve seen you posting on LinkedIn and enjoying that. And you’re really into supporting leaders. And that’s where my heart is as well.  This will be a really lovely conversation.  I’d like to start with just the principal pipeline and why that’s a passion of yours.

04:30
Chara
The pipeline work is so important to me because when I reflect upon my career, from a teacher leader to becoming a principal and eventually going on to work at the district and the state level, I just think about everything that I experienced that prepared me to move up in various positions. And I also think about my experiences now and reflecting upon just, and we all know the research about the shifts in leaders and just how the state of education is right now. It’s so important to sustain and to continue to build, empower principals that can really cultivate thriving schools for the years to come across our educational system.

05:27
Danny
You’ve worked at the local level. I think you’re at the state level now, if I remember correctly. That’s wild. How’s your support and leadership changed, moving from the micro of the school to the macro of the state?

05:43
Dr Chara
When I think about working with leaders, the beauty of having this big bird’s eye view at the state level, and I would even say at the national level, because I work with leaders at that place as well, is that the commonalities are the same. It doesn’t matter if you’re in one state or the next. If you’re in a smaller district or a bigger district, the need for coaching, the need to have a community that you can lean upon is ever so present in leaders for today. And just the overall stressors of ensuring that we have school communities that work for kids is also something that transcends every leader, I believe.

06:36
Danny
When you’re supporting schools and that kind of thing, do you see a commonality or a trend or something to connect the dots in terms of what makes the challenges so real for them?

06:51
Dr Chara
I think for me, what I notice a lot with leaders is just the need to figure it out and also wanting to have someone to figure it out with. That’s something common that I see everywhere. And sometimes that community for principals is present and in some cases it’s not. And I also, I have found that there are various pathways to being a district and building leader as well.

07:30
Danny
What’s going on with those leaders that are connected? And you said some are connected, some are not. Why is that?

07:37
Dr Chara
I think that while we’ve made strides in the educational leadership space as it relates to knowing that principles matter, that leadership matters and you think about all of the research that has come out, even as it relates to principal building and cultivating civil pipelines. I believe that the practice of catching up with what the research has stated for principles is just taking just a little bit more time to massage in some places and in other places it has taken off in a great way.  It’s coming, but I think that in the educational leadership space that we still have more work do to understand that principals and leaders that we need, that support is needed for long term sustainment in the job role.

08:39
Danny
It’s kind of hard to imagine a sustainable future.  Especially for leaders in education without that kind of support. It was interesting.  I’m getting coached of course I’m getting coached myself. One of the things I’ve been taught recently is this idea of mercenaries versus missionaries. It’s kind of, I don’t know if Simon’s the next infinite game. It’s similar to that in that mercenaries are more scarce. You have to compete. Chara has to lose to Danny to win aversus missionaries that would do the work for free or they get paid for it because they love it, they’re collaborative, they. If Chara’s winning, all leaders are winning. So that kind of thing. I find that fascinating. But anyway, as my coach was talking about that, I was thinking, okay, how do I be more generous at 22? By the time this show airs, I will have released some of these episodes. But long story short, put out an application. Hey, I’m a coach for you for free.  We’re just going to tell your story through the podcast.  I think that’ll be great for the person I’m coaching, the person who listens because they don’t have the same challenge. And then it’ll be great for me because it’s showing the value of being coached. Char, the thing I never would have expected. One of the applicants put a newer listener to the show. He said,’ Okay, newer principal. I never even thought of getting a coach until I heard your podcast.’ And I’m promoting the category of getting yourself a coach. The idea of sustainable leadership development. Because we’re better together. I’m gonna. I can make some assumptions and of course, I’d love to hear from him, but I want to hear from you. You’re the expert on today’s show. What does that tell you?  The response was, I never would have thought right of getting a coach unless I listened to your podcast.

10:41
Dr Chara
It’s so interesting because recently I did a. In one of my videos on LinkedIn I talked about imposter syndrome and leaders. I’ve been doing this series about clocking in and thinking about workplace culture, organ employee engagement, and how educational leaders can really rally the troops, so to say, at their school. And so I was having a question, a conversation with an aspiring principal, I’m sorry, an aspiring assistant principal who was one of my former teachers. And so I asked her, “Well, are you going to?” It’s interview season. Are you going to apply? And she said, no. She was kind of having some concerns about applying. Anyway, long story short, it took me down this rabbit hole of trying to figure out why it is that high capacity individuals such as educational leaders do not either apply for jobs or do other things to seek support? And imposter syndrome came up. And so when I think about it, in the realm of coaching, sometimes we imposter. We don’t want to be vulnerable. We don’t. As educational leaders, it’s not necessarily a safe space to say, I don’t know, but it’s okay to not know everything that makes you more credible as well as. But I think it’s imposter syndrome and not wanting to be seen as if you don’t. As if you don’t know. And that’s why having a coach, but at least a community of principles, I call it, say, finding your tribe and finding your tribe help because that helps you to know that it’s okay. Everyone deserves it. Michael Jordan had a coach. Yeah, we all deserve a coach. And it’s not to be coached just because you come from this place of deficit.

12:50
Danny
I use that example, too. I mean, Jordan had a coach, Beyonce as voice coach, how to dance coach type of thing, perform. There’s a great article by Atul Gawande, who wrote the Checklist Manifesto, but the, like, the importance of being coached. He’s a surgeon and so he was like, it doesn’t exist in our industry, but what would it be like to hire a more senior surgeon to provide feedback to me and how I’m performing surgeries and can I get better? And of course, like, here’s the punchline. You got better. Like, you get better with that consistent support and feedback, but can we back up just a second? I know what imposter syndrome is. I’m quite familiar with it. Talk about it. But can you explain it in your own words in case a Ruckus Maker listening, like, had never heard that term.

13:38
Dr Chara
Essentially, in layman’s terms, what imposter syndrome is. It’s a yemenite psychological phenomenon where you believe that, in essence, that you’re really not enough, even though none of your work habits or none of what you do on the job. Everything states that you are doing well, but somewhere along the line, you believe that you need more. Whether you need more degrees to add more to your plate, you need more skills. You think that you need more when what you have is already enough and oftentimes as well. I like to say imposter syndrome is really thinking is down selling yourself versus really thinking the best part of you.

14:31
Danny
I think that’s a great explanation for sure. Downselling yourself for putting a ceiling on what you can accomplish It’s an upper limit challenge. Do you have a strategy tool or resource, like, for somebody listening like that says, oh, that’s me, I’ve been down selling for too long? Tell them or her what could they do about it?

14:53
Dr Chara
Two things, really. So the first thing that I suggest that people do is to really just write it. Grab a pen, grab a paper, and just write it down. Write down everything that you know that you do and that you do well. These are your gifts and your talents, and then find a trusted mentor or a coach or a confidant and talk that list through with them. And so that way you can actually find out for yourself that, hey, it may not necessarily be me. These are really the thoughts that I have in my head.

15:33
Danny
I’m really into mindfulness and meditation, and something that I’ve learned there is like, listen, you’re not your thoughts. You know, you’re not your thoughts. You’re not your emotions. But many times we identify ourselves with these things, and it’s usually not very supportive or helpful. In those moments. The only other thing I’ll share with the Ruckus Maker listening, there’s a great book called the War of Art  by Stephen Pressfield. You’re smiling. Maybe you’ve read it, but that’s a good one that addresses how to defeat the imposter syndrome, too, which Stephen calls the resistance. So aspiring leaders are your people. We’ve talked a bit about principal pipeline and sustainable leadership, but why are you in love with aspiring leaders?

16:16
Dr Chara
In my work with coaching new principals and just various cohorts with new and early career principals, I have begun to really have an affinity for future principle or aspiring principal, because oftentimes when we just spoke about imposter syndrome and really think itI. I know a lot of assistant principals, and I’ll say you should. Why haven’t I? Why aren’t you a principal yet? Why haven’t you? Why haven’t you applied? And oftentimes,  I don’t think I’m ready. I don’t. Blah, blah, blah. All of them. All of the whatever. I shouldn’t say excuses, but all of them.

17:00
Danny
We can say, I’ll say it, then I’ll be the bad guy. Those are our excuses. Okay, Danny said it.

17:04
Dr Chara
Danny. But really, what it is, all of the excuses.  I said, well, how. What can I do to try to bring more people into the principalship and to be quite honest, to convince them that they can do it as well. So that’s why I really enjoy working with aspiring principals. Honestly, I also believe that any, not just from the assistant principal lens, aspiring principals need specific support to prepare them for the principalship. That means making what’s invisible in the principalship visible, and if we can do that early, once they assume the role of principal. Now, the principalship is still going to be hard and complex, but we’ll know, have a better view of what to expect and how and what to do in the first year to the first couple of years. Also when we talk about.
I’m just thinking out loud right now. But I think having designated cohorts and opportunities to help to prepare you for the next level is our response to imposter syndrome because it helps you really hone your skills and really to identify how good you really might be, but also areas to really reflect upon where you need to go in a safe space.

18:32
Danny
I like to say that the principalship will never be easy, but it certainly could be easier. And working with somebody like you certainly could be the right move forward. And I love what you said about making the invisible visible, just like you mentioned, with defeating the imposter and journaling your skillset, journaling your outcomes and results. All the cool stuff, amazing, remarkable, legendary stuff that you’ve done starts building your confidence. But it’s visible. You can see it. If you can take aspiring principles and show the invisible and make it visible, that’s super helpful. I’m loving our conversation. This is a great place to pause for a second for a message from our sponsors when we get back. Sarah, I’d love to hear, like maybe what are some of those things  that are invisible, that you help make visible?

19:22
Danny
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22:27
Dr Chara
One of the things is really thinking about your mentality. I call it a CEO mentality. And often what I try to help aspiring principals and new principals as well, is to really understand that mindset shift and to know that when you are the principal, you have to really think of yourself as the chief executive officer of that building and helping them to, how can I explain it in words? Trying to make the heaviness or the responsibility of that visible and that they can feel that before you actually step into that role. That’s really important. And another thing that’s so helpful with aspiring principals to make it visible is the thinking work of being a principal.  I tell many of them that you have to, you don’t realize how the principalship is a lot of brain power because you’re not always doing, because you’re the CEO.  But when are you actually scheduling time for you to think through and process and strategize and reflect? And so it may sound crazy, but you have to schedule meetings with yourself just to think and to process. If, and I learned that, Danny, I would say probably year two of being a principal, that I really just needed to be okay with closing my door. And sometimes I would close my door and turn my lights off in my office and that was my thinking time. But nobody ever gave me permission to do it. I just had to do it.

24:22
Danny
You gotta do it for yourself. One of my most, like, I don’t wanna call it viral, but most commented, shared liked posts on Facebook was, why 24/7 open door policy is stupid. It’s terrible. And Ruckus Maker, if you’re listening and have an open door policy, don’t do it. Very bad idea.. Connect with me on Facebook. You can read the post, but the main assertion is that you’re just, you’re inviting distraction. You’re inviting. Interruption into the flow. And CEO mindset rockets maker mindset. You are hired to lead and there are certain things that only you can do. How are you going to do it unless you. So the opposite is also not true. Don’t always close your door. Twenty four seven. And some people misinterpreted what I was saying there, but it’s schedule, what I call deep work time. You call it thinking time. And I love what you said. Nobody gave me permission. I had to give permission myself. That’s awesome. Was there a catalyst for that? Or likelike, why did you all of a sudden say, you know what, I need the thinking tongue.

25:36
Dr Chara
It goes into work life harmony. And I was finding myself being at a place that was not sustainable to where I would go home. My brain was still in school as it is and it will always probably forever be on that. But actually, I attended a workshop as well. And I’m, what was it? It was called the breakthrough coach. And he, the premise of that breakthrough coach was trying to help us as leaders to have work and a life. And how can you really have this realistic work week? And part of that was really thinking about, well, you can work on things at work so that you can go home no, you don’t have to take everything. You have to take some things home, but you don’t have to take everything home. To be honest that’s what I was doing.  I did that for years. And so that’s why now I try to lead with that, with aspiring principles, to develop some of the habits now, so that once you assume the position, you start out with really understanding, okay, I am the CEO.

27:02
Dr Chara
This is really how I need to chunk my calendar. This is how I need to have boundaries with my time because everybody and everything wants access and FaceTime with you, and that’s making that invisible visible. You don’t really feel that until you step into the role.

27:23
Danny
What I’ve seenI mean, it’s not modeled well for principals. Right. So work life balance is not the right word. Because it’s not achievable. But you can certainly prioritize things that fill your cup, so to speak. The principal role is a demanding role, so it’s always going to be hard. ButI think we do good cop, bad cop. I’ll be a little tough on the Ruckus Maker, listening. Anda lot of people will complain about not seeing their family, not having time for themselves or time to work out or time to eat. You know, come on, like, you have time. You just have to prioritize that time. And in my viewI’m being a little tough on people today, but that’s okay. You’re big enough, you can take it. In my view, you don’t have the right to complain about that stuff if you’re not prioritizing work while you’re at work, in family, when you’re at home with family. And here’s the other reason. You’re taught the wrong thing. And here’s what people teach. Principals will teach other principles. People before paperwork. And people are important in the role. But what people before paperwork doesn’t address is saying you have to close the door at times and have the time to think time, get some of the administrative stuff. Your role has changed. You’re no longer a teacher. You can’t always be with kids and always with people. If you want that, then maybe don’t be a principal. So that’s an edgy point of view, but it depends on the quality of life that you want.  I’m into sustainability. This has come full circle. Me and you both, I think, are into sustainable leadership development. And if you want that, then you have to prioritize, again things that are going to fill your cup.  And so I don’t know if you have anything to add on that, but then we’ll move on to building teams.

29:18
Dr Chara
Building the team, that’s a perfect segue into it, because part of. Of this sustainable leadership, I call it being an empowered leader, if you build the team, you cannot and you cannot do it all alone. And if you are a coaching leader and you have a coaching stance as a leader, you will naturally build your team up around you. But you also want this. This spirit of collaboration and collective efficacy within your building. So you build those teams up so that they can also have this work, life, harmony. Guess what? So you can have it too. It’s all interconnected. And that’s another invisible thing that I have to teach future principles is that good teams aren’t created, they’re made. And you have to invest the time in building that culture of teamwork.

30:33
Danny
What I’m hearing you say is you gotta be really intentional. You gotta be really intentional about that. Let me ask you the question that I asked all my guests. So if you were gonna put one message on all school marquees around the world, what would your message be?

30:49
Dr Chara
Hash collective is excellent.

30:52
Danny
Okay, very cool. Tell me more.

30:55
Dr Chara
And so what I mean by collective excellence is that we have this mindset of excellence within our building, in our school community, so that you can translate excellence in all that we do, academic culture, all of the things. And collective excellence means that we have to do it together.

31:18
Danny
And what if you were building your dream school, Chara, and you weren’t constrained by any resources. Your only limitation was your ability to imagine what would be the three guiding principles building this dream school.

31:31
Dr Chara
Oh, goodness. It would be very centric and student driven. I would ask students what it is that they want to learn about and set the school up that way. It will also be one to the door. This may sound crazy, but I would try to have a school without doors, maybe windows, so that we can deprive practices within the classroom. And they’re similar to when you’re in a hotel room and you can go from one room to the next. I would love to have  open spaces. That you can navigate and walk around. That connects almost like the beltline in Atlanta. That makes all parts of Atlanta. I would love for teachers and staff to be able to connect that way.

32:23
Dr Chara
My last piece would be some sort of community driven program that will be housed at the school so that the students and in our staff, we can understand the importance that we’re not apart from the community and that we can give back to the community.

32:42
Danny
Brilliant.  I know that folks can find Doctor Chara [email protected]. And we covered a lot of ground today. Everything we discussed, what’s the one thing you want a Ruckus Maker to remember?

32:55
Dr Chara
I want Ruckus Makers to remember this. Find your confidence as leaders. Find your calendar, find the time to clock out, find a trusted coach and find your tribe. Find your community that supports and empowers you.

33:18
Danny
Thanks for listening to the Better Leaders Better Schools podcast. Ruckus Maker, how would you like to lead with confidence? Swap exhaustion for energy, turn your critics into cheerleaders and so much more. The Ruckus Maker. Mastermind is a world class leadership program designed for growth minded school leaders just like you. Go to betterleadersbetterschools.com/Mastermind, learn more about our program and fill out the application. We’ll be in touch within 48 hours to talk about how we can help you be even more effective. We have cohorts that are diverse and mixed up. We also have cohorts just for women in leadership and a bipoc only cohort as well. When you’re ready to level up, go to betterleadersbetterschools.com mastermind and fill out the application. Thanks again for listening to the show. Bye for now and go make a ruckus.