Beyond the Institution: Redesigning School Spaces

Beyond the Institution: Redesigning School Spaces 

Danny
Absolutely. So I want to start talking about intentional space design teaching, and being an administrator, being a student. And often schools were kind of dreary, very institutional, terrible lighting. It wasn’t an exciting place that I wanted to be in. And I know that you’re very passionate about designing school spaces that are not traditional or institutional. So can you talk about the design process at the district level? 

07:12
Dr Vitale
Sure, I’d love to. First of all, I should begin with school superintendents and our training. Even in our doctoral level classes, we don’t get any training on school construction. We might talk, and today there’s a little more discussion surrounding learning spaces. But in my undergrad training, graduate training, and my doctoral level training, I never talked about that. And I always thought, I never want to be involved in construction because that’s not really my forte. I want to be involved in instruction, not construction, but ministry. Absolutely. We’re outgrowing our buildings, and they’re old, and like many districts in, you know, haven’t really saved to update buildings. And so we reached a point at Seneca Valley where we were growing again, and it was time for an older building to be so, you know, we began down this path knowing very little about school construction. 

08:20
Dr Vitale
Most school leaders, school board members, know very little. You might have a board member who has some background in construction, and hopefully your director of buildings and grounds has a little bit of background. But the reality is, I can work with our business manager on funding. I’d like to think I’m pretty good at getting teachers what they need. I see myself as kind of like the resource queen sometimes. You got a good idea, I’ll find a way to fund it. But what I wasn’t prepared for was $100 million. That’s bigger than I pride myself on. If I can find a million in a year to get an initiative off the ground for a teacher, that’s huge, because, let’s face it, if I knew how to make 3 million, I probably would be talking to you from a different scenery, nevertheless. 

So it’s just not an area that school superintendents are well versed in. So when we went down this path of looking at first feasibility studies, what do we do with the old buildings? Can they renovate? Or is it time you look at a car and you say, at what point? Do you just need a new car? So we had reached that point, we’d be researching around 1516 where to start first, because we have many old buildings. And so the board, after feasibility studies, after bringing in construction managers, construction experts, engineers, decided that it was time to replace our oldest building, which was designed to be a high school, and then morphed over the years into an elementary school. So that happens a lot in the United States. And so when I told my husband I was embarking on this journey of construction that I knew nothing about and he knows nothing about, he said, whatever you do, just don’t build another institution. Now, I don’t like to give him a lot of credit, so I’m hoping he doesn’t listen to this podcast. 

10:24
Danny
I won’t send it to him because. 

10:25
Dr Vitale
I’d like to take it. Okay. I take good ideas from everyone. And I thought about the institution. I was a little offended at first. We don’t have institutions. What does he mean? And I got very defensive. And then one day, not long after that conversation, I was walking through our intermediate high school, which is a 910 building, and the walls were so drab. We must have had a discount on state paint that year, because I thought, okay, I need to look at this differently. This yellow, pale yellow paint. This is what he’s talking about in this long hall that almost looks like a hospital, not a school. Shame on me. Have I become part of these institutions? And I don’t see it. So from that point on, it was like an epiphany. That’s it. 

11:19
Dr Vitale
I said to my team, where can we find some of the newest schools that have been built in the United States? Where can we find schools outside of the United States? And we just began on this journey as a team, trying to find the coolest environment for a school that we could find. And really what we did was we set out to not build a school at all. And this new building that we just opened is called Irman Elementary Ermine Middle School. It opened in 2002. So we’re about a year and a half into utilizing this building. Brand new building. It, to our surprise, was recognized by Times magazine as one of the best 200 inventions in 2022, which we never set out to do. Again, this is social media the Times magazine Time found us. 

12:11
Dr Vitale
Again, we didn’t set out to design an award winning building. We set out to design not an institution, not a school. But instead we settled on, let’s design a school, especially an elementary, lower level, middle school, as kind of like a children’s museum. I’m a big fan of museums. I love museums, especially children’s museums. They’re very hands on. So we hired a consultant from the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh and Fulham. She sat with us at design, and there’s no doubt through all the design processes, all the pictures we looked at, all the things that she said would maybe work in a school. We went and visited the children’s museum again. I had been there, but went again to Pittsburgh and took our whole leadership team and said, what do you love about this learning space? 

13:05
Dr Vitale
And then we tried to replicate that in a school. So it’s easy to build on the perimeter. That’s easy. But I was not going to do that. Number one, to prove my husband wrong, but number two, I just wanted this to be an environment where as soon as kids saw the building from the outside, be excited, right. That they would be like, wait, is this a school? And then when they walked inside, was this still a school? It does not look like a school, which I love. 

13:39
Danny
So can you paint a picture of what kids and staff experience as they enter this building? Just because this is an audio format. Right. And I bet right now people are getting excited. Okay, so you did build an institution. We get what a museum could be like, especially a kids museum. But what are some of the things that we might see or hear or experience? 

14:02
Dr Vitale
I was really focused on and taken by all the museums I had visited. And I also had this amazing opportunity to visit the schools in Finland back in 2017. I think that was. And so that really impacted the way I think about schools and what they could be in America as well. So there’s a little taste of the Finnish schools. There’s a taste of our Pittsburgh children’s museum. There are pieces that, all good ideas should be replicated, in my opinion. And you may not be able to do that necessarily in the business world with patents, but in schools and in education, we love to steal good ideas and give people credit. The Carnegie Science Museum here in Pittsburgh, I always loved when I was in that with my younger children, the big ramp, like, you didn’t have to take the steps. Those are boring. You didn’t have to take one of these circular ramps in the Helsinki library. It was a newer library when I had visited, and I thought, what a cool space like this is a learning space. So we have a circular ramp as soon as you open the foyer doors, and that is the first thing the kids see. That, too, is a learning space. And where we really landed through all of this brainstorming and meeting with stakeholders and involving a lot of people over many years, we landed. I kept pushing this notion that the building should be a teaching tool. It should be part of the learning, part of the teaching. 

15:40
Dr Vitale
It shouldn’t be just a space where we learn, but in every aspect of the building, there are little curious and curious questions that we pose throughout the outside of the building before you come into the building. So as soon as you park your car and look at the building, there are curious questions as soon as you come to the front of the building about why these pillars are angled? What are these measurements? This measures x amount of kips. What are kips? So we have metric, we have standard measurements, but we don’t give the answers away. But the adults, too, are thinking about, what is the story here? What’s going on here with these beams that are holding the canopy up? And in the. 

16:48
Dr Vitale
Another question, I will tell you, I’d love for you to come see the building, but we’d love to have you in our canopy. I insisted that the lights portray the night sky in the month that we would open the building. And so they are placed in star constellations, what the September sky looked like in western Pennsylvania when we opened the building in the fall of 2022. But we don’t give that away. We pose questions about, what do you think? What could these be that cost us? Nothing. So there are a lot of unique design components that are very cost efficient as well. 

17:30
Danny
Yeah. Offline. We’ll talk about a visit, because I feel like I have to see the place now. You’re making me want to come. 

17:38
Dr Vitale
It’s a fun place. It’s really a fun place for all learners of all ages. 

17:42
Danny
And if we could backtrack a bit. I latched onto this idea because, big reason I didn’t tell you this in the pre chat before we hit record, but this show was created because of the gaps that I found in my leadership. Right. The things that weren’t taught at graduate school or within the district or whatever on how to be more effective as a leader. And I just knew. And so I figured if I talk to the Dr. Vitals of the world, learn from your stories of success and failure, and most importantly, implement one idea that you teach me, then I would grow, and I didn’t know that it would change my life by doing this learning in public.  But you’ve identified it. Sounds like a big gap for superintendents in terms of construction and designing learning spaces. Can you give an overview? 

18:32
Danny
Because I don’t think we’ll have time to get into the nitty gritty details. You don’t have to give a master class on this either, but just some sort of like, the big ideas of what a superintendent needs to sort of process when considering creating a new building that’s not an institution. Right. Does that question make sense? 

18:52
Dr Vitale
Yes, but it goes back even further that all of my ideas would not have put together a very good building.  I’m one person, and I’m not the whole answer for a large community like Seneca Valley. And so we have 53,000 constituents. We have very diverse thinking, very different political parties on both sides of the aisle. And so how do you bring all these ideas of what people want in a building from all different ages? And therefore, I think even to go into a project like this, where I was lucky, where I had things in place that I didn’t realize at the time when I was an assistant superintendent, I revamped the entire hiring process. That’s really my expertise. Teacher selection. How do you find good teachers? How do you get them to the table? How do you recruit once they’re there? 

19:56
Dr Vitale
How do you grow them? How do you retain them? And that’s a huge discussion right now in our country with the teacher shortages in schools, which is very different from the business world. And so I really focused on relationships. I focused on listening to people who had totally different ideas than me. And I might initially get defensive, like I did with my husband when he said, don’t build another institution. But then being curious, saying, well, tell me what you mean by that. Let me think more deeply about that. And can I put my own ego, this person in front of me, whether they’re an educator or not? And I think having a good team in place is what made this building so amazing. Good leaders, good teacher leaders, good administrators, good construction managers. It just was a whole conglomerate of people. 

20:58
Dr Vitale
Because I might have had an idea of what the playground should have looked like based on a playground I saw in Helsinki. But what should that look like in the United States in our, I think those are the pieces that we sometimes miss the mark on with leadership in general, teachers or administrators. But the huge gap, even if I had a class in school construction, I’m not sure it would have helped me as much as getting the right experts to the table. And that is because of relationships. That is because of honoring diverse voices. That is because of setting aside your ego as a leader and saying, maybe I don’t know everything, even after 28 years, and I don’t involve stakeholders. But most importantly, we’re not taught this as superintendents. I hope this is changing. 

22:24
Danny
Solve this problem that we’re facing. And the challenge is to not evaluate any idea as bad or dumb or wouldn’t ever work. To get that judging mind out of the way, throw it all down. And what you’ll find is some of those wild ideas are actually like really great solutions.  I appreciate you sharing that and tapping into students. Actually, before we get to students, one more question. Obviously Helsinki, Finland. You were really inspired by spaces there. Pittsburgh and Children’s Museum. I heard you say, were there any other spaces around the US? You might just tell the ruckus maker listening. Hey, check out what this school is doing in terms of how it’s designed. It’s a pretty cool thing to see and experience. We had a difficult time finding creative elementaries. Isn’t that kind of sad? 

23:19
Danny
It’s very sad, actually. 

23:21
Dr Vitale
If our most creative, craziest looking building should be elementaries, I’m now looking for high schools. And when I ask my colleagues, I get one or two, you know, maybe this school in California.  I’m researching because of cost, that’s one of the main driving forces, right? Because you have to be able to pay for it. And so that’s another reason we build these square boxes, because it’s cheaper. But we’re at a time where kids won’t sit in cubicles and square boxes and work anymore. So why are we doing this in schools? Why do we still have this factory model after all these years? And so I don’t have a lot that I could prop up. 

24:10
Dr Vitale
I did some neighboring newer schools who I was like, okay, I like the way they’re using light, natural light, and Helsinki is known for that. All the Finnish schools are about getting kids outdoors. And when they’re inside in the cold winter months, bringing the outdoors in through a lot of glass. And when I first started looking at it, I wanted a lot of glass, I wanted to bring the outside in. I want these spatial sight lines to be out in every room we’re in. I started getting some and we built institutions. But I would argue if you are willing to be creative enough and listen to diverse voices, student voices, people of all ages, people in all different industries. You can still do it efficiently and cheaply, but it takes time. We were five years planning this out before we ever had design on paper. 

25:13
Dr Vitale
A lot of research went into it before we hired the architects. Then the architects, of course, added to that. But before we brought architects in, we needed an idea of what we were looking for. And this building is shaped to explain from an audio perspective, like a Y. As you come in, that’s the base of the Y. And then they branch out and it’s two stories. On one side we have k to four, kindergarten to fourth grade, and on the other side, fifth and 6th. And they share specials. And the ramp leads you to our amazing kindergarten wing because you are curious. The proof is in the pudding. Like the ramp did. It cost us a lot of money, almost a million dollars. And people would say, I would have used that in classrooms. What to add to the box. 

26:02
Dr Vitale
I really pushed and fought our stakeholders to spend the money on the ramp. And the proof is in the pudding. The first day we opened, I’m at the building. I went to all the buildings on the first day, but I wanted to be there when those buses arrived. And we always have some criers, kindergartners, they’re afraid to leave home. They have some school phobias. And this was the least amount of criers we ever had. And one young lady, her mom walked her to the door, she wouldn’t get on the bus. And I got down at her eye level, grabbed her hand, and I said, I’m Dr. Vitel, can I walk you in? And she said. Shook her head, I’m not sure. And I said, have you been in this building? Did you see the ramp? And she said, ramp? And I said, let me show you the ramp. And the doors opened and she saw this circular ramp and she looked up at me and, with a big smile, didn’t know where her mother was at this point, didn’t care, and said, I love that ramp. That’s all she cared about. I love that ramp. Proof is in the pudding, right? And the kids still love it. And the adults still love it. And talk about getting your exercise. This ramp, the kids walk more in the building than they do taking. There are steps that they can take and there are steps on the five, six sides, but you’re trying to pique their curiosity. They’re full of energy. We can do things differently. We need to do things differently. 

27:34
Danny
100%. And in my first book, I talked about how Disney shouldn’t be the most magical place on earth. It should be our schools, and they’re not. And so, again, isn’t that kind of sad? Because it’s not that Disney does have an advantage with their budget. Of course. And their human resources and their team. But the reason Disney works is not the money where kids can imagine and be curious and learn and play and have fun. I think that’s something that you believe, too. It’s coming through in the design of your elementary school here. And I just want to commend you on the work you’re doing. I’d like to shift a bit to sort of like students and teachers. And since we’re talking about shifts, the traditional model is like lecturing. 

28:32
Danny
Teaching, maybe even, God forbid, but there’s still classrooms, right? Rows and all this kind of stuff. And I talk about how teachers should move from imparting or banking knowledge to co-creating wisdom with students. And you believe teachers should be coaches and facilitators. Would you like to riff on that perspective at all and how you maybe help teachers see themselves as coach and facilitator versus traditional lecturer? 

29:02
Dr Vitale
What’s interesting, just this morning I was having a text exchange with our three assistant superintendents about teacher talk versus student talk in the classroom.  In traditional classrooms, the teachers do the majority of the talking. I’m guilty. I’m the former. I like to call myself a rehabilitated middle school english teacher and a senior high english teacher who would have been put out of business by now with Chat GPT. But that’s a discussion, maybe for later. So how can we get teachers to reflect without it being so evaluative? Because if I say, hey, did you ever think maybe you talked too much and maybe we should let the kids talk more? It’s about learning more than it is about when my husband said, don’t build another institution, that’s not how I want to be treated. That’s not how I personally grow. 

29:57
Dr Vitale
In order for me to grow, I need to be curious. We think adult learning theory is different from children’s learning theory, but it’s not right. We all want to have a say in our learning. I don’t want to read a book that you make me read. If we learned anything through the pandemic, it should have been that people want choice. Adults and kids give me a choice in my learning. Let me have a say in my learning. Regardless of my age. I don’t care if you’re four or five or you are 60 or 70. Let me have a choice. And so I think we have to approach teachers, and we try to, at Seneca Valley, we are not perfect. We’re trying to get better every day about choices. 

30:45
Dr Vitale
And so the question would be, have you ever thought about teacher talk versus student talk? And what do you want your classroom to be, and what’s the research out there? Because there’s a lot of research on why kids should be talking more than teachers in the classroom. And I don’t mean unorganized, chaotic talk, although chaos is okay sometimes as well. But we’re even beyond that. Whole teachers should be on the side as the sage instead of being on the stage. We’re beyond that. We need to be in a place, the Internet, information technology, AI, that has replaced kids and don’t need me to deliver information anymore. They need me to help them organize and to assess the information and to evaluate the information. That’s how my job should be changing as a teacher. And our best, our master teachers, they got that a long time ago. And when I walk into those classrooms, they just blend like they’re not standing in the front. As a matter of fact, we let the teachers in this new building choose their furniture. They did not choose a stationary desk. 

32:04
Danny
How about that? 

32:04
Dr Vitale
There’s a desk kind of built into some cabinets. They chose a technology podium, for lack of a better word, on wheels, that they can move around should they need it. But if you go into any of these elementary classrooms, and especially in the new building, the building kind of supports that whole notion of, hey, I’m moving around with the kids. I’m a learner in this classroom, and I might be facilitating some of this, but I’m not leading all the learning, but I’m guiding it. 

32:38
Danny
Yeah. That’s so good. Do you know the company TeachfX, by any chance? 

32:43
Dr Vitale
I think that was one of the products we were looking at. Where is this the one where you record yourself as a teacher and it’ll let you know how much you talked versus the kids? We’re looking at that as one of the products and trying to. Again, we don’t want to rule out a product that a teacher will fear. Who’s going to listen to this? And will the superintendent be listening to it? And will my principal knock me down on my evaluation? That’s not what it’s about.  It’s about growth. And so a product like that, we would try to pilot with volunteer teachers who hold the data themselves for reflection. 

33:21
Danny
I bring it into the conversation because they’ve sponsored the podcast for years and I know the schools that use it are obviously seeing positive results. And since you brought up teacher talk time versus student talk, I just wanted to make sure you knew about it or the ruckus maker listening knew about it as well. All right, great.  I really enjoyed our conversation. I don’t want it to end. Let me ask you one more question. And I’ve been asking this to all my superintendent guests, but basically with Einstein, he famously talked about if he had a problem to solve, he’d ask a question to ask and then spend 5 minutes to actually answer the question. Right. So I’m just curious as we end, you know, what’s a question you would hope that more educators were asking right now? 

34:23
Dr Vitale
What is AI? How will it impact teaching and learning? And I’m not as smart as Einstein, so I would spend my 55 minutes talking to kids about this. 

34:38
Danny
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for being a guest. 

34:42
Dr Vitale
Thank you for having me. 

34:42
Danny
I appreciate you.