Dr. Chara N. Willaford, founder of Be Your Best Yet Coaching and Consulting, is an educational leader with 25+ years of experience. A National Mentor and Trainer, she specializes in turning around schools, empowering future and early-career principals. Dr. Chara's journey spans roles at state, district, national, and building levels, reflecting a deep commitment to shaping the future of education. Her holistic approach and commitment to continuous learning are embodied in the motto, 'The Best is Yet to Come.
Show Highlights
Quotable Ruckus
“When I think about working with leaders, the beauty of having this big bird's eye view at the state level, and I would even say at the national level, because I work with leaders at that place as well, is that the commonalities are the same. It doesn't matter if you're in one state or the next. If you're in a smaller district or a bigger district, the need for coaching, the need to have a community that you can lean upon is ever so present in leaders for today. The overall stress of ensuring that we have school communities that work for kids is something that transcends every leader.”
- Dr. Chara N. Willaford
Beyond the Institution: Redesigning School Spaces
Danny
Absolutely. So I want to start talking about intentional space design teaching, and being an administrator, being a student. And often schools were kind of dreary, very institutional, terrible lighting. It wasn't an exciting place that I wanted to be in. And I know that you're very passionate about designing school spaces that are not traditional or institutional. So can you talk about the design process at the district level?
07:12
Dr Vitale
Sure, I'd love to. First of all, I should begin with school superintendents and our training. Even in our doctoral level classes, we don't get any training on school construction. We might talk, and today there's a little more discussion surrounding learning spaces. But in my undergrad training, graduate training, and my doctoral level training, I never talked about that. And I always thought, I never want to be involved in construction because that's not really my forte. I want to be involved in instruction, not construction, but ministry. Absolutely. We're outgrowing our buildings, and they're old, and like many districts in, you know, haven't really saved to update buildings. And so we reached a point at Seneca Valley where we were growing again, and it was time for an older building to be so, you know, we began down this path knowing very little about school construction.
08:20
Dr Vitale
Most school leaders, school board members, know very little. You might have a board member who has some background in construction, and hopefully your director of buildings and grounds has a little bit of background. But the reality is, I can work with our business manager on funding. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at getting teachers what they need. I see myself as kind of like the resource queen sometimes. You got a good idea, I'll find a way to fund it. But what I wasn't prepared for was $100 million. That's bigger than I pride myself on. If I can find a million in a year to get an initiative off the ground for a teacher, that's huge, because, let's face it, if I knew how to make 3 million, I probably would be talking to you from a different scenery, nevertheless.
So it's just not an area that school superintendents are well versed in. So when we went down this path of looking at first feasibility studies, what do we do with the old buildings? Can they renovate? Or is it time you look at a car and you say, at what point? Do you just need a new car? So we had reached that point, we'd be researching around 1516 where to start first, because we have many old buildings. And so the board, after feasibility studies, after bringing in construction managers, construction experts, engineers, decided that it was time to replace our oldest building, which was designed to be a high school, and then morphed over the years into an elementary school. So that happens a lot in the United States. And so when I told my husband I was embarking on this journey of construction that I knew nothing about and he knows nothing about, he said, whatever you do, just don't build another institution. Now, I don't like to give him a lot of credit, so I'm hoping he doesn't listen to this podcast.
10:24
Danny
I won't send it to him because.
10:25
Dr Vitale
I'd like to take it. Okay. I take good ideas from everyone. And I thought about the institution. I was a little offended at first. We don't have institutions. What does he mean? And I got very defensive. And then one day, not long after that conversation, I was walking through our intermediate high school, which is a 910 building, and the walls were so drab. We must have had a discount on state paint that year, because I thought, okay, I need to look at this differently. This yellow, pale yellow paint. This is what he's talking about in this long hall that almost looks like a hospital, not a school. Shame on me. Have I become part of these institutions? And I don't see it. So from that point on, it was like an epiphany. That's it.
11:19
Dr Vitale
I said to my team, where can we find some of the newest schools that have been built in the United States? Where can we find schools outside of the United States? And we just began on this journey as a team, trying to find the coolest environment for a school that we could find. And really what we did was we set out to not build a school at all. And this new building that we just opened is called Irman Elementary Ermine Middle School. It opened in 2002. So we're about a year and a half into utilizing this building. Brand new building. It, to our surprise, was recognized by Times magazine as one of the best 200 inventions in 2022, which we never set out to do. Again, this is social media the Times magazine Time found us.
12:11
Dr Vitale
Again, we didn't set out to design an award winning building. We set out to design not an institution, not a school. But instead we settled on, let's design a school, especially an elementary, lower level, middle school, as kind of like a children's museum. I'm a big fan of museums. I love museums, especially children's museums. They're very hands on. So we hired a consultant from the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh and Fulham. She sat with us at design, and there's no doubt through all the design processes, all the pictures we looked at, all the things that she said would maybe work in a school. We went and visited the children's museum again. I had been there, but went again to Pittsburgh and took our whole leadership team and said, what do you love about this learning space?
13:05
Dr Vitale
And then we tried to replicate that in a school. So it's easy to build on the perimeter. That's easy. But I was not going to do that. Number one, to prove my husband wrong, but number two, I just wanted this to be an environment where as soon as kids saw the building from the outside, be excited, right. That they would be like, wait, is this a school? And then when they walked inside, was this still a school? It does not look like a school, which I love.
13:39
Danny
So can you paint a picture of what kids and staff experience as they enter this building? Just because this is an audio format. Right. And I bet right now people are getting excited. Okay, so you did build an institution. We get what a museum could be like, especially a kids museum. But what are some of the things that we might see or hear or experience?
14:02
Dr Vitale
I was really focused on and taken by all the museums I had visited. And I also had this amazing opportunity to visit the schools in Finland back in 2017. I think that was. And so that really impacted the way I think about schools and what they could be in America as well. So there's a little taste of the Finnish schools. There's a taste of our Pittsburgh children's museum. There are pieces that, all good ideas should be replicated, in my opinion. And you may not be able to do that necessarily in the business world with patents, but in schools and in education, we love to steal good ideas and give people credit. The Carnegie Science Museum here in Pittsburgh, I always loved when I was in that with my younger children, the big ramp, like, you didn't have to take the steps. Those are boring. You didn't have to take one of these circular ramps in the Helsinki library. It was a newer library when I had visited, and I thought, what a cool space like this is a learning space. So we have a circular ramp as soon as you open the foyer doors, and that is the first thing the kids see. That, too, is a learning space. And where we really landed through all of this brainstorming and meeting with stakeholders and involving a lot of people over many years, we landed. I kept pushing this notion that the building should be a teaching tool. It should be part of the learning, part of the teaching.
15:40
Dr Vitale
It shouldn't be just a space where we learn, but in every aspect of the building, there are little curious and curious questions that we pose throughout the outside of the building before you come into the building. So as soon as you park your car and look at the building, there are curious questions as soon as you come to the front of the building about why these pillars are angled? What are these measurements? This measures x amount of kips. What are kips? So we have metric, we have standard measurements, but we don't give the answers away. But the adults, too, are thinking about, what is the story here? What's going on here with these beams that are holding the canopy up? And in the.
16:48
Dr Vitale
Another question, I will tell you, I'd love for you to come see the building, but we'd love to have you in our canopy. I insisted that the lights portray the night sky in the month that we would open the building. And so they are placed in star constellations, what the September sky looked like in western Pennsylvania when we opened the building in the fall of 2022. But we don't give that away. We pose questions about, what do you think? What could these be that cost us? Nothing. So there are a lot of unique design components that are very cost efficient as well.
17:30
Danny
Yeah. Offline. We'll talk about a visit, because I feel like I have to see the place now. You're making me want to come.
17:38
Dr Vitale
It's a fun place. It's really a fun place for all learners of all ages.
17:42
Danny
And if we could backtrack a bit. I latched onto this idea because, big reason I didn't tell you this in the pre chat before we hit record, but this show was created because of the gaps that I found in my leadership. Right. The things that weren't taught at graduate school or within the district or whatever on how to be more effective as a leader. And I just knew. And so I figured if I talk to the Dr. Vitals of the world, learn from your stories of success and failure, and most importantly, implement one idea that you teach me, then I would grow, and I didn't know that it would change my life by doing this learning in public. But you've identified it. Sounds like a big gap for superintendents in terms of construction and designing learning spaces. Can you give an overview?
18:32
Danny
Because I don't think we'll have time to get into the nitty gritty details. You don't have to give a master class on this either, but just some sort of like, the big ideas of what a superintendent needs to sort of process when considering creating a new building that's not an institution. Right. Does that question make sense?
18:52
Dr Vitale
Yes, but it goes back even further that all of my ideas would not have put together a very good building. I'm one person, and I'm not the whole answer for a large community like Seneca Valley. And so we have 53,000 constituents. We have very diverse thinking, very different political parties on both sides of the aisle. And so how do you bring all these ideas of what people want in a building from all different ages? And therefore, I think even to go into a project like this, where I was lucky, where I had things in place that I didn't realize at the time when I was an assistant superintendent, I revamped the entire hiring process. That's really my expertise. Teacher selection. How do you find good teachers? How do you get them to the table? How do you recruit once they're there?
19:56
Dr Vitale
How do you grow them? How do you retain them? And that's a huge discussion right now in our country with the teacher shortages in schools, which is very different from the business world. And so I really focused on relationships. I focused on listening to people who had totally different ideas than me. And I might initially get defensive, like I did with my husband when he said, don't build another institution. But then being curious, saying, well, tell me what you mean by that. Let me think more deeply about that. And can I put my own ego, this person in front of me, whether they're an educator or not? And I think having a good team in place is what made this building so amazing. Good leaders, good teacher leaders, good administrators, good construction managers. It just was a whole conglomerate of people.
20:58
Dr Vitale
Because I might have had an idea of what the playground should have looked like based on a playground I saw in Helsinki. But what should that look like in the United States in our, I think those are the pieces that we sometimes miss the mark on with leadership in general, teachers or administrators. But the huge gap, even if I had a class in school construction, I'm not sure it would have helped me as much as getting the right experts to the table. And that is because of relationships. That is because of honoring diverse voices. That is because of setting aside your ego as a leader and saying, maybe I don't know everything, even after 28 years, and I don't involve stakeholders. But most importantly, we're not taught this as superintendents. I hope this is changing.
22:24
Danny
Solve this problem that we're facing. And the challenge is to not evaluate any idea as bad or dumb or wouldn't ever work. To get that judging mind out of the way, throw it all down. And what you'll find is some of those wild ideas are actually like really great solutions. I appreciate you sharing that and tapping into students. Actually, before we get to students, one more question. Obviously Helsinki, Finland. You were really inspired by spaces there. Pittsburgh and Children's Museum. I heard you say, were there any other spaces around the US? You might just tell the ruckus maker listening. Hey, check out what this school is doing in terms of how it's designed. It's a pretty cool thing to see and experience. We had a difficult time finding creative elementaries. Isn't that kind of sad?
23:19
Danny
It's very sad, actually.
23:21
Dr Vitale
If our most creative, craziest looking building should be elementaries, I'm now looking for high schools. And when I ask my colleagues, I get one or two, you know, maybe this school in California. I'm researching because of cost, that's one of the main driving forces, right? Because you have to be able to pay for it. And so that's another reason we build these square boxes, because it's cheaper. But we're at a time where kids won't sit in cubicles and square boxes and work anymore. So why are we doing this in schools? Why do we still have this factory model after all these years? And so I don't have a lot that I could prop up.
24:10
Dr Vitale
I did some neighboring newer schools who I was like, okay, I like the way they're using light, natural light, and Helsinki is known for that. All the Finnish schools are about getting kids outdoors. And when they're inside in the cold winter months, bringing the outdoors in through a lot of glass. And when I first started looking at it, I wanted a lot of glass, I wanted to bring the outside in. I want these spatial sight lines to be out in every room we're in. I started getting some and we built institutions. But I would argue if you are willing to be creative enough and listen to diverse voices, student voices, people of all ages, people in all different industries. You can still do it efficiently and cheaply, but it takes time. We were five years planning this out before we ever had design on paper.
25:13
Dr Vitale
A lot of research went into it before we hired the architects. Then the architects, of course, added to that. But before we brought architects in, we needed an idea of what we were looking for. And this building is shaped to explain from an audio perspective, like a Y. As you come in, that's the base of the Y. And then they branch out and it's two stories. On one side we have k to four, kindergarten to fourth grade, and on the other side, fifth and 6th. And they share specials. And the ramp leads you to our amazing kindergarten wing because you are curious. The proof is in the pudding. Like the ramp did. It cost us a lot of money, almost a million dollars. And people would say, I would have used that in classrooms. What to add to the box.
26:02
Dr Vitale
I really pushed and fought our stakeholders to spend the money on the ramp. And the proof is in the pudding. The first day we opened, I'm at the building. I went to all the buildings on the first day, but I wanted to be there when those buses arrived. And we always have some criers, kindergartners, they're afraid to leave home. They have some school phobias. And this was the least amount of criers we ever had. And one young lady, her mom walked her to the door, she wouldn't get on the bus. And I got down at her eye level, grabbed her hand, and I said, I'm Dr. Vitel, can I walk you in? And she said. Shook her head, I'm not sure. And I said, have you been in this building? Did you see the ramp? And she said, ramp? And I said, let me show you the ramp. And the doors opened and she saw this circular ramp and she looked up at me and, with a big smile, didn't know where her mother was at this point, didn't care, and said, I love that ramp. That's all she cared about. I love that ramp. Proof is in the pudding, right? And the kids still love it. And the adults still love it. And talk about getting your exercise. This ramp, the kids walk more in the building than they do taking. There are steps that they can take and there are steps on the five, six sides, but you're trying to pique their curiosity. They're full of energy. We can do things differently. We need to do things differently.
27:34
Danny
100%. And in my first book, I talked about how Disney shouldn't be the most magical place on earth. It should be our schools, and they're not. And so, again, isn't that kind of sad? Because it's not that Disney does have an advantage with their budget. Of course. And their human resources and their team. But the reason Disney works is not the money where kids can imagine and be curious and learn and play and have fun. I think that's something that you believe, too. It's coming through in the design of your elementary school here. And I just want to commend you on the work you're doing. I'd like to shift a bit to sort of like students and teachers. And since we're talking about shifts, the traditional model is like lecturing.
28:32
Danny
Teaching, maybe even, God forbid, but there's still classrooms, right? Rows and all this kind of stuff. And I talk about how teachers should move from imparting or banking knowledge to co-creating wisdom with students. And you believe teachers should be coaches and facilitators. Would you like to riff on that perspective at all and how you maybe help teachers see themselves as coach and facilitator versus traditional lecturer?
29:02
Dr Vitale
What's interesting, just this morning I was having a text exchange with our three assistant superintendents about teacher talk versus student talk in the classroom. In traditional classrooms, the teachers do the majority of the talking. I'm guilty. I'm the former. I like to call myself a rehabilitated middle school english teacher and a senior high english teacher who would have been put out of business by now with Chat GPT. But that's a discussion, maybe for later. So how can we get teachers to reflect without it being so evaluative? Because if I say, hey, did you ever think maybe you talked too much and maybe we should let the kids talk more? It's about learning more than it is about when my husband said, don't build another institution, that's not how I want to be treated. That's not how I personally grow.
29:57
Dr Vitale
In order for me to grow, I need to be curious. We think adult learning theory is different from children's learning theory, but it's not right. We all want to have a say in our learning. I don't want to read a book that you make me read. If we learned anything through the pandemic, it should have been that people want choice. Adults and kids give me a choice in my learning. Let me have a say in my learning. Regardless of my age. I don't care if you're four or five or you are 60 or 70. Let me have a choice. And so I think we have to approach teachers, and we try to, at Seneca Valley, we are not perfect. We're trying to get better every day about choices.
30:45
Dr Vitale
And so the question would be, have you ever thought about teacher talk versus student talk? And what do you want your classroom to be, and what's the research out there? Because there's a lot of research on why kids should be talking more than teachers in the classroom. And I don't mean unorganized, chaotic talk, although chaos is okay sometimes as well. But we're even beyond that. Whole teachers should be on the side as the sage instead of being on the stage. We're beyond that. We need to be in a place, the Internet, information technology, AI, that has replaced kids and don't need me to deliver information anymore. They need me to help them organize and to assess the information and to evaluate the information. That's how my job should be changing as a teacher. And our best, our master teachers, they got that a long time ago. And when I walk into those classrooms, they just blend like they're not standing in the front. As a matter of fact, we let the teachers in this new building choose their furniture. They did not choose a stationary desk.
32:04
Danny
How about that?
32:04
Dr Vitale
There's a desk kind of built into some cabinets. They chose a technology podium, for lack of a better word, on wheels, that they can move around should they need it. But if you go into any of these elementary classrooms, and especially in the new building, the building kind of supports that whole notion of, hey, I'm moving around with the kids. I'm a learner in this classroom, and I might be facilitating some of this, but I'm not leading all the learning, but I'm guiding it.
32:38
Danny
Yeah. That's so good. Do you know the company TeachfX, by any chance?
32:43
Dr Vitale
I think that was one of the products we were looking at. Where is this the one where you record yourself as a teacher and it'll let you know how much you talked versus the kids? We're looking at that as one of the products and trying to. Again, we don't want to rule out a product that a teacher will fear. Who's going to listen to this? And will the superintendent be listening to it? And will my principal knock me down on my evaluation? That's not what it's about. It's about growth. And so a product like that, we would try to pilot with volunteer teachers who hold the data themselves for reflection.
33:21
Danny
I bring it into the conversation because they've sponsored the podcast for years and I know the schools that use it are obviously seeing positive results. And since you brought up teacher talk time versus student talk, I just wanted to make sure you knew about it or the ruckus maker listening knew about it as well. All right, great. I really enjoyed our conversation. I don't want it to end. Let me ask you one more question. And I've been asking this to all my superintendent guests, but basically with Einstein, he famously talked about if he had a problem to solve, he'd ask a question to ask and then spend 5 minutes to actually answer the question. Right. So I'm just curious as we end, you know, what's a question you would hope that more educators were asking right now?
34:23
Dr Vitale
What is AI? How will it impact teaching and learning? And I'm not as smart as Einstein, so I would spend my 55 minutes talking to kids about this.
34:38
Danny
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for being a guest.
34:42
Dr Vitale
Thank you for having me.
34:42
Danny
I appreciate you.
Your Do School Different Challenge
Ready to implement these ideas? Start here:
- Tomorrow: Identify one traditional lesson that could be taught through hands-on, real-world application instead. How might algebra look in a business setting or science in an environmental context?
- This Month: Map your community’s business assets and reach out to 3-5 potential partners who might provide internships or client-connected projects for students
- This Semester: Establish a “Career Navigator” position or repurpose an existing role to focus specifically on connecting students with real-world learning opportunities
Dr. Chara’s Resources & Contact Info:
Read my latest book!
Learn why the ABCs of powerful professional development™ work – Grow your skills by integrating more Authenticity, Belonging, and Challenge into your life and leadership.
Apply to the Mastermind
The mastermind is changing the landscape of professional development for school leaders.
100% of our members agree that the mastermind is the #1 way they grow their leadership skills.
How We Serve Leaders
The School Leadership Scorecard™
Identify your highest leverage areas for growth this year in 10 -minutes or less.
https://betterleadersbetterschools.com/scorecard
Month-to-Month Principal Checklist
As a principal with so much to do, you might be thinking, where do I even start?
When you download The Principal Checklist you’ll get
12-months of general tasks that every campus need to do
Space to write your campus specific items.
Space to reflect and not what worked as well as a space of what didn’t work
Go to https://betterleadersbetterschools.com/principal-checklist to download now.
Ruckus Maker Mindset Tool™
The “secret” to peak performance is not complicated. It’s a plan on how to optimize the five fundamentals found in The Ruckus Maker Mindset Tool™.
https://betterleadersbetterschools.com/mindset
The Positive Spotlight Tool™
Energy flows to where attention goes!
If you want to get more of what you want, when you want it as a school leader I have a tool for you...
Download The Positive Spotlight Tool™ for free here:
https://betterleadersbetterschools.com/positive
The Ruckus Maker 8-Step Goal Setting Tool™
Are you ready to accomplish more?
With less effort and in less time?
When you download The Ruckus Maker 8-Step Goal Setting Tool™ I’ll send you the tool and a short 8-minute coaching video that shows you how to work smarter, not harder…and create more value for your school campus.
Download The Ruckus Maker 8-Step Goal Setting Tool™ for free at
Read the Transcript here.
Making the Invisible, Visible
Thanks for hitting play. If you love exploring how to ‘do school different’ so you can make a legendary impact on your campus, then you're in the right place. I'm Danny Bauer, and this is the better leaders, better Schools podcast, the original Ruckus Maker podcast for visionary leaders, innovators, and rebels in education. Thanks to Ruckus Makers just like you, this podcast ranks in the top of over 3 million worldwide shows. In today's conversation, I spoke with doctor Chara N. Willeford, and we covered topics like principal pipelines and sustainable leadership development, how to conquer the imposter syndrome, why thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking, and how to make the invisible visible. So once again, thanks for listening, and we'll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsor. Hey, Ruckus Maker, I'll make this quick.
If you're listening to this message right now, you're missing out. When you subscribe to the Ruckus Maker newsletter on Substack, you get access to micro books focused on how to do school different tools and other resources that will help you make a ruckus and do school different stories and case studies of the world's most legendary Ruckus Makers of all time. Access to my calendar to schedule coaching sessions, and you'll also get bonus podcast content that won't be released on the main podcast feed and podcast episodes without any advertisements. So if you love this show, if it's helped you grow and you want access to more tools and resources that will help you make a ruckus and do school different and become a paid subscriber at RuckusMakers.substack.com. What do the most effective leaders all have in common?
After coaching and mentoring thousands of school leaders, I've identified seven key areas that make Ruckus Makers highly effective. When you download the school leadership scorecard, you will identify the highest leverage opportunities for you to grow in the next 90 days, and you can complete this tool in ten minutes or less. Get your free copy of the school Leadership [email protected]. Scorecard IXL is a go to support for classroom teachers because its adaptive platform makes differentiated instruction easy. See for yourself and get started today@ ixl.com/Leaders.
What does your school cafeteria make you think of? Chaos? Headaches? Quality food? Well, Quest stands apart in the school food service industry as a partner that provides high quality food for your students. This is food you can be proud of. Learn more at Quest food management [email protected] or follow Quest food on social media. That's questfms.com. Welcome to the show. Doctor Chara Ann Willeford.
Dr Chara
Hello. Hello. Glad to be here.
04:08
Danny
Glad to have you, too. We've connected, and I've seen you posting on LinkedIn and enjoying that. And you're really into supporting leaders. And that's where my heart is as well. This will be a really lovely conversation. I'd like to start with just the principal pipeline and why that's a passion of yours.
04:30
Chara
The pipeline work is so important to me because when I reflect upon my career, from a teacher leader to becoming a principal and eventually going on to work at the district and the state level, I just think about everything that I experienced that prepared me to move up in various positions. And I also think about my experiences now and reflecting upon just, and we all know the research about the shifts in leaders and just how the state of education is right now. It's so important to sustain and to continue to build, empower principals that can really cultivate thriving schools for the years to come across our educational system.
05:27
Danny
You've worked at the local level. I think you're at the state level now, if I remember correctly. That's wild. How's your support and leadership changed, moving from the micro of the school to the macro of the state?
05:43
Dr Chara
When I think about working with leaders, the beauty of having this big bird's eye view at the state level, and I would even say at the national level, because I work with leaders at that place as well, is that the commonalities are the same. It doesn't matter if you're in one state or the next. If you're in a smaller district or a bigger district, the need for coaching, the need to have a community that you can lean upon is ever so present in leaders for today. And just the overall stressors of ensuring that we have school communities that work for kids is also something that transcends every leader, I believe.
06:36
Danny
When you're supporting schools and that kind of thing, do you see a commonality or a trend or something to connect the dots in terms of what makes the challenges so real for them?
06:51
Dr Chara
I think for me, what I notice a lot with leaders is just the need to figure it out and also wanting to have someone to figure it out with. That's something common that I see everywhere. And sometimes that community for principals is present and in some cases it's not. And I also, I have found that there are various pathways to being a district and building leader as well.
07:30
Danny
What's going on with those leaders that are connected? And you said some are connected, some are not. Why is that?
07:37
Dr Chara
I think that while we've made strides in the educational leadership space as it relates to knowing that principles matter, that leadership matters and you think about all of the research that has come out, even as it relates to principal building and cultivating civil pipelines. I believe that the practice of catching up with what the research has stated for principles is just taking just a little bit more time to massage in some places and in other places it has taken off in a great way. It's coming, but I think that in the educational leadership space that we still have more work do to understand that principals and leaders that we need, that support is needed for long term sustainment in the job role.
08:39
Danny
It's kind of hard to imagine a sustainable future. Especially for leaders in education without that kind of support. It was interesting. I'm getting coached of course I'm getting coached myself. One of the things I've been taught recently is this idea of mercenaries versus missionaries. It's kind of, I don't know if Simon's the next infinite game. It's similar to that in that mercenaries are more scarce. You have to compete. Chara has to lose to Danny to win aversus missionaries that would do the work for free or they get paid for it because they love it, they're collaborative, they. If Chara's winning, all leaders are winning. So that kind of thing. I find that fascinating. But anyway, as my coach was talking about that, I was thinking, okay, how do I be more generous at 22? By the time this show airs, I will have released some of these episodes. But long story short, put out an application. Hey, I'm a coach for you for free. We're just going to tell your story through the podcast. I think that'll be great for the person I'm coaching, the person who listens because they don't have the same challenge. And then it'll be great for me because it's showing the value of being coached. Char, the thing I never would have expected. One of the applicants put a newer listener to the show. He said,’ Okay, newer principal. I never even thought of getting a coach until I heard your podcast.’ And I'm promoting the category of getting yourself a coach. The idea of sustainable leadership development. Because we're better together. I'm gonna. I can make some assumptions and of course, I'd love to hear from him, but I want to hear from you. You're the expert on today's show. What does that tell you? The response was, I never would have thought right of getting a coach unless I listened to your podcast.
10:41
Dr Chara
It's so interesting because recently I did a. In one of my videos on LinkedIn I talked about imposter syndrome and leaders. I've been doing this series about clocking in and thinking about workplace culture, organ employee engagement, and how educational leaders can really rally the troops, so to say, at their school. And so I was having a question, a conversation with an aspiring principal, I'm sorry, an aspiring assistant principal who was one of my former teachers. And so I asked her, "Well, are you going to?" It's interview season. Are you going to apply? And she said, no. She was kind of having some concerns about applying. Anyway, long story short, it took me down this rabbit hole of trying to figure out why it is that high capacity individuals such as educational leaders do not either apply for jobs or do other things to seek support? And imposter syndrome came up. And so when I think about it, in the realm of coaching, sometimes we imposter. We don't want to be vulnerable. We don't. As educational leaders, it's not necessarily a safe space to say, I don't know, but it's okay to not know everything that makes you more credible as well as. But I think it's imposter syndrome and not wanting to be seen as if you don't. As if you don't know. And that's why having a coach, but at least a community of principles, I call it, say, finding your tribe and finding your tribe help because that helps you to know that it's okay. Everyone deserves it. Michael Jordan had a coach. Yeah, we all deserve a coach. And it's not to be coached just because you come from this place of deficit.
12:50
Danny
I use that example, too. I mean, Jordan had a coach, Beyonce as voice coach, how to dance coach type of thing, perform. There's a great article by Atul Gawande, who wrote the Checklist Manifesto, but the, like, the importance of being coached. He's a surgeon and so he was like, it doesn't exist in our industry, but what would it be like to hire a more senior surgeon to provide feedback to me and how I'm performing surgeries and can I get better? And of course, like, here's the punchline. You got better. Like, you get better with that consistent support and feedback, but can we back up just a second? I know what imposter syndrome is. I'm quite familiar with it. Talk about it. But can you explain it in your own words in case a Ruckus Maker listening, like, had never heard that term.
13:38
Dr Chara
Essentially, in layman's terms, what imposter syndrome is. It's a yemenite psychological phenomenon where you believe that, in essence, that you're really not enough, even though none of your work habits or none of what you do on the job. Everything states that you are doing well, but somewhere along the line, you believe that you need more. Whether you need more degrees to add more to your plate, you need more skills. You think that you need more when what you have is already enough and oftentimes as well. I like to say imposter syndrome is really thinking is down selling yourself versus really thinking the best part of you.
14:31
Danny
I think that's a great explanation for sure. Downselling yourself for putting a ceiling on what you can accomplish It's an upper limit challenge. Do you have a strategy tool or resource, like, for somebody listening like that says, oh, that's me, I've been down selling for too long? Tell them or her what could they do about it?
14:53
Dr Chara
Two things, really. So the first thing that I suggest that people do is to really just write it. Grab a pen, grab a paper, and just write it down. Write down everything that you know that you do and that you do well. These are your gifts and your talents, and then find a trusted mentor or a coach or a confidant and talk that list through with them. And so that way you can actually find out for yourself that, hey, it may not necessarily be me. These are really the thoughts that I have in my head.
15:33
Danny
I'm really into mindfulness and meditation, and something that I've learned there is like, listen, you're not your thoughts. You know, you're not your thoughts. You're not your emotions. But many times we identify ourselves with these things, and it's usually not very supportive or helpful. In those moments. The only other thing I'll share with the Ruckus Maker listening, there's a great book called the War of Art by Stephen Pressfield. You're smiling. Maybe you've read it, but that's a good one that addresses how to defeat the imposter syndrome, too, which Stephen calls the resistance. So aspiring leaders are your people. We've talked a bit about principal pipeline and sustainable leadership, but why are you in love with aspiring leaders?
16:16
Dr Chara
In my work with coaching new principals and just various cohorts with new and early career principals, I have begun to really have an affinity for future principle or aspiring principal, because oftentimes when we just spoke about imposter syndrome and really think itI. I know a lot of assistant principals, and I'll say you should. Why haven't I? Why aren't you a principal yet? Why haven't you? Why haven't you applied? And oftentimes, I don't think I'm ready. I don't. Blah, blah, blah. All of them. All of the whatever. I shouldn't say excuses, but all of them.
17:00
Danny
We can say, I'll say it, then I'll be the bad guy. Those are our excuses. Okay, Danny said it.
17:04
Dr Chara
Danny. But really, what it is, all of the excuses. I said, well, how. What can I do to try to bring more people into the principalship and to be quite honest, to convince them that they can do it as well. So that's why I really enjoy working with aspiring principals. Honestly, I also believe that any, not just from the assistant principal lens, aspiring principals need specific support to prepare them for the principalship. That means making what's invisible in the principalship visible, and if we can do that early, once they assume the role of principal. Now, the principalship is still going to be hard and complex, but we'll know, have a better view of what to expect and how and what to do in the first year to the first couple of years. Also when we talk about.
I'm just thinking out loud right now. But I think having designated cohorts and opportunities to help to prepare you for the next level is our response to imposter syndrome because it helps you really hone your skills and really to identify how good you really might be, but also areas to really reflect upon where you need to go in a safe space.
18:32
Danny
I like to say that the principalship will never be easy, but it certainly could be easier. And working with somebody like you certainly could be the right move forward. And I love what you said about making the invisible visible, just like you mentioned, with defeating the imposter and journaling your skillset, journaling your outcomes and results. All the cool stuff, amazing, remarkable, legendary stuff that you've done starts building your confidence. But it's visible. You can see it. If you can take aspiring principles and show the invisible and make it visible, that's super helpful. I'm loving our conversation. This is a great place to pause for a second for a message from our sponsors when we get back. Sarah, I'd love to hear, like maybe what are some of those things that are invisible, that you help make visible?
19:22
Danny
I also want to talk about building strong teams because I know that's another passion of yours. As a school leader, time is your greatest resource, and there is a real sense of urgency when it comes to getting students what they need right now. That's why I love the IXL universal screener. In 20 minutes or less, you can identify students in need of intervention. And IXL's adaptive platform makes differentiating instruction easy. As students learn, IXL adjusts to the right level of difficulty for each individual kid. Get started [email protected]. Leaders that's Ixl.com leaders.
When it comes to your school's dining experience, it might feel like one more thing on your plate. Which is why you need a collaborative partner who will proactively listen and respond to your individual cafeteria needs. When you bring on quest food management services, you can expect support around school cafeteria facility and equipment design, concept and station creation, menu and nutrition development, employee management, technology implementation, marketing, communications and day to day guest food service and operations. With Quest, you get it all. Learn more about Quest food Management [email protected] or follow Quest food on social media. That's quest fmshe.com. And we're back with Dr Chara and Wellaford. And we've been talking about a lot of stuff, imposter syndrome and aspiring leadership. We've been talking recently about making the invisible visible, and that's where I want to start here, because it takes like fear, scariness, the boogeyman, sort of equality, like, oh, this is gonna, it's okay. Plenty of people do it. What are some of those invisible things that you help make visible for aspiring leaders?
22:27
Dr Chara
One of the things is really thinking about your mentality. I call it a CEO mentality. And often what I try to help aspiring principals and new principals as well, is to really understand that mindset shift and to know that when you are the principal, you have to really think of yourself as the chief executive officer of that building and helping them to, how can I explain it in words? Trying to make the heaviness or the responsibility of that visible and that they can feel that before you actually step into that role. That's really important. And another thing that's so helpful with aspiring principals to make it visible is the thinking work of being a principal. I tell many of them that you have to, you don't realize how the principalship is a lot of brain power because you're not always doing, because you're the CEO. But when are you actually scheduling time for you to think through and process and strategize and reflect? And so it may sound crazy, but you have to schedule meetings with yourself just to think and to process. If, and I learned that, Danny, I would say probably year two of being a principal, that I really just needed to be okay with closing my door. And sometimes I would close my door and turn my lights off in my office and that was my thinking time. But nobody ever gave me permission to do it. I just had to do it.
24:22
Danny
You gotta do it for yourself. One of my most, like, I don't wanna call it viral, but most commented, shared liked posts on Facebook was, why 24/7 open door policy is stupid. It's terrible. And Ruckus Maker, if you're listening and have an open door policy, don't do it. Very bad idea.. Connect with me on Facebook. You can read the post, but the main assertion is that you're just, you're inviting distraction. You're inviting. Interruption into the flow. And CEO mindset rockets maker mindset. You are hired to lead and there are certain things that only you can do. How are you going to do it unless you. So the opposite is also not true. Don't always close your door. Twenty four seven. And some people misinterpreted what I was saying there, but it's schedule, what I call deep work time. You call it thinking time. And I love what you said. Nobody gave me permission. I had to give permission myself. That's awesome. Was there a catalyst for that? Or likelike, why did you all of a sudden say, you know what, I need the thinking tongue.
25:36
Dr Chara
It goes into work life harmony. And I was finding myself being at a place that was not sustainable to where I would go home. My brain was still in school as it is and it will always probably forever be on that. But actually, I attended a workshop as well. And I'm, what was it? It was called the breakthrough coach. And he, the premise of that breakthrough coach was trying to help us as leaders to have work and a life. And how can you really have this realistic work week? And part of that was really thinking about, well, you can work on things at work so that you can go home no, you don't have to take everything. You have to take some things home, but you don't have to take everything home. To be honest that's what I was doing. I did that for years. And so that's why now I try to lead with that, with aspiring principles, to develop some of the habits now, so that once you assume the position, you start out with really understanding, okay, I am the CEO.
27:02
Dr Chara
This is really how I need to chunk my calendar. This is how I need to have boundaries with my time because everybody and everything wants access and FaceTime with you, and that's making that invisible visible. You don't really feel that until you step into the role.
27:23
Danny
What I've seenI mean, it's not modeled well for principals. Right. So work life balance is not the right word. Because it's not achievable. But you can certainly prioritize things that fill your cup, so to speak. The principal role is a demanding role, so it's always going to be hard. ButI think we do good cop, bad cop. I'll be a little tough on the Ruckus Maker, listening. Anda lot of people will complain about not seeing their family, not having time for themselves or time to work out or time to eat. You know, come on, like, you have time. You just have to prioritize that time. And in my viewI'm being a little tough on people today, but that's okay. You're big enough, you can take it. In my view, you don't have the right to complain about that stuff if you're not prioritizing work while you're at work, in family, when you're at home with family. And here's the other reason. You're taught the wrong thing. And here's what people teach. Principals will teach other principles. People before paperwork. And people are important in the role. But what people before paperwork doesn't address is saying you have to close the door at times and have the time to think time, get some of the administrative stuff. Your role has changed. You're no longer a teacher. You can't always be with kids and always with people. If you want that, then maybe don't be a principal. So that's an edgy point of view, but it depends on the quality of life that you want. I'm into sustainability. This has come full circle. Me and you both, I think, are into sustainable leadership development. And if you want that, then you have to prioritize, again things that are going to fill your cup. And so I don't know if you have anything to add on that, but then we'll move on to building teams.
29:18
Dr Chara
Building the team, that's a perfect segue into it, because part of. Of this sustainable leadership, I call it being an empowered leader, if you build the team, you cannot and you cannot do it all alone. And if you are a coaching leader and you have a coaching stance as a leader, you will naturally build your team up around you. But you also want this. This spirit of collaboration and collective efficacy within your building. So you build those teams up so that they can also have this work, life, harmony. Guess what? So you can have it too. It's all interconnected. And that's another invisible thing that I have to teach future principles is that good teams aren't created, they're made. And you have to invest the time in building that culture of teamwork.
30:33
Danny
What I'm hearing you say is you gotta be really intentional. You gotta be really intentional about that. Let me ask you the question that I asked all my guests. So if you were gonna put one message on all school marquees around the world, what would your message be?
30:49
Dr Chara
Hash collective is excellent.
30:52
Danny
Okay, very cool. Tell me more.
30:55
Dr Chara
And so what I mean by collective excellence is that we have this mindset of excellence within our building, in our school community, so that you can translate excellence in all that we do, academic culture, all of the things. And collective excellence means that we have to do it together.
31:18
Danny
And what if you were building your dream school, Chara, and you weren't constrained by any resources. Your only limitation was your ability to imagine what would be the three guiding principles building this dream school.
31:31
Dr Chara
Oh, goodness. It would be very centric and student driven. I would ask students what it is that they want to learn about and set the school up that way. It will also be one to the door. This may sound crazy, but I would try to have a school without doors, maybe windows, so that we can deprive practices within the classroom. And they're similar to when you're in a hotel room and you can go from one room to the next. I would love to have open spaces. That you can navigate and walk around. That connects almost like the beltline in Atlanta. That makes all parts of Atlanta. I would love for teachers and staff to be able to connect that way.
32:23
Dr Chara
My last piece would be some sort of community driven program that will be housed at the school so that the students and in our staff, we can understand the importance that we're not apart from the community and that we can give back to the community.
32:42
Danny
Brilliant. I know that folks can find Doctor Chara [email protected]. And we covered a lot of ground today. Everything we discussed, what's the one thing you want a Ruckus Maker to remember?
32:55
Dr Chara
I want Ruckus Makers to remember this. Find your confidence as leaders. Find your calendar, find the time to clock out, find a trusted coach and find your tribe. Find your community that supports and empowers you.
33:18
Danny
Thanks for listening to the Better Leaders Better Schools podcast. Ruckus Maker, how would you like to lead with confidence? Swap exhaustion for energy, turn your critics into cheerleaders and so much more. The Ruckus Maker. Mastermind is a world class leadership program designed for growth minded school leaders just like you. Go to betterleadersbetterschools.com/Mastermind, learn more about our program and fill out the application. We'll be in touch within 48 hours to talk about how we can help you be even more effective. We have cohorts that are diverse and mixed up. We also have cohorts just for women in leadership and a bipoc only cohort as well. When you're ready to level up, go to betterleadersbetterschools.com mastermind and fill out the application. Thanks again for listening to the show. Bye for now and go make a ruckus.
SHOW SPONSORS:
Quest Food Management Services
Quest Food Management Services provides high-quality, scratch-made food in K-12 schools and universities across the country, prioritizing the health and wellness of students and elevating the cafeteria dining experience. Quest offers a full-service approach to their school partners, bringing 40 years of expertise through every stage of program development and nurturing a true sense of community through interactive events such as student food committees. For more information about Quest Food Management Services, www.questfms.com
IXL
IXL is the most widely used online learning and teaching platform for K to 12. Over 1 million teachers use IXL in their classrooms every day for one reason: They love it. Visit IXL.com/Leaders to lead your school towards data-driven excellence today.
