Chris Loeffler is the Head of Wilmington Friends Lower School. Prior to this role, Chris spent 7 years in administration, 13 years in the classroom, and even graduated from Wilmington Friends. His experience as a student, where he felt valued and given a voice in a peaceful environment, motivates him as an educator to provide the same experience for each of his students.
Show Highlights
Quotable Ruckus
“How you respond is probably the most important thing you can do when you’re making decisions, because you’re not going to get it right all the time.”
- Chris Loeffler
Beyond the Institution: Redesigning School Spaces
Danny
Absolutely. So I want to start talking about intentional space design teaching, and being an administrator, being a student. And often schools were kind of dreary, very institutional, terrible lighting. It wasn't an exciting place that I wanted to be in. And I know that you're very passionate about designing school spaces that are not traditional or institutional. So can you talk about the design process at the district level?
07:12
Dr Vitale
Sure, I'd love to. First of all, I should begin with school superintendents and our training. Even in our doctoral level classes, we don't get any training on school construction. We might talk, and today there's a little more discussion surrounding learning spaces. But in my undergrad training, graduate training, and my doctoral level training, I never talked about that. And I always thought, I never want to be involved in construction because that's not really my forte. I want to be involved in instruction, not construction, but ministry. Absolutely. We're outgrowing our buildings, and they're old, and like many districts in, you know, haven't really saved to update buildings. And so we reached a point at Seneca Valley where we were growing again, and it was time for an older building to be so, you know, we began down this path knowing very little about school construction.
08:20
Dr Vitale
Most school leaders, school board members, know very little. You might have a board member who has some background in construction, and hopefully your director of buildings and grounds has a little bit of background. But the reality is, I can work with our business manager on funding. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at getting teachers what they need. I see myself as kind of like the resource queen sometimes. You got a good idea, I'll find a way to fund it. But what I wasn't prepared for was $100 million. That's bigger than I pride myself on. If I can find a million in a year to get an initiative off the ground for a teacher, that's huge, because, let's face it, if I knew how to make 3 million, I probably would be talking to you from a different scenery, nevertheless.
So it's just not an area that school superintendents are well versed in. So when we went down this path of looking at first feasibility studies, what do we do with the old buildings? Can they renovate? Or is it time you look at a car and you say, at what point? Do you just need a new car? So we had reached that point, we'd be researching around 1516 where to start first, because we have many old buildings. And so the board, after feasibility studies, after bringing in construction managers, construction experts, engineers, decided that it was time to replace our oldest building, which was designed to be a high school, and then morphed over the years into an elementary school. So that happens a lot in the United States. And so when I told my husband I was embarking on this journey of construction that I knew nothing about and he knows nothing about, he said, whatever you do, just don't build another institution. Now, I don't like to give him a lot of credit, so I'm hoping he doesn't listen to this podcast.
10:24
Danny
I won't send it to him because.
10:25
Dr Vitale
I'd like to take it. Okay. I take good ideas from everyone. And I thought about the institution. I was a little offended at first. We don't have institutions. What does he mean? And I got very defensive. And then one day, not long after that conversation, I was walking through our intermediate high school, which is a 910 building, and the walls were so drab. We must have had a discount on state paint that year, because I thought, okay, I need to look at this differently. This yellow, pale yellow paint. This is what he's talking about in this long hall that almost looks like a hospital, not a school. Shame on me. Have I become part of these institutions? And I don't see it. So from that point on, it was like an epiphany. That's it.
11:19
Dr Vitale
I said to my team, where can we find some of the newest schools that have been built in the United States? Where can we find schools outside of the United States? And we just began on this journey as a team, trying to find the coolest environment for a school that we could find. And really what we did was we set out to not build a school at all. And this new building that we just opened is called Irman Elementary Ermine Middle School. It opened in 2002. So we're about a year and a half into utilizing this building. Brand new building. It, to our surprise, was recognized by Times magazine as one of the best 200 inventions in 2022, which we never set out to do. Again, this is social media the Times magazine Time found us.
12:11
Dr Vitale
Again, we didn't set out to design an award winning building. We set out to design not an institution, not a school. But instead we settled on, let's design a school, especially an elementary, lower level, middle school, as kind of like a children's museum. I'm a big fan of museums. I love museums, especially children's museums. They're very hands on. So we hired a consultant from the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh and Fulham. She sat with us at design, and there's no doubt through all the design processes, all the pictures we looked at, all the things that she said would maybe work in a school. We went and visited the children's museum again. I had been there, but went again to Pittsburgh and took our whole leadership team and said, what do you love about this learning space?
13:05
Dr Vitale
And then we tried to replicate that in a school. So it's easy to build on the perimeter. That's easy. But I was not going to do that. Number one, to prove my husband wrong, but number two, I just wanted this to be an environment where as soon as kids saw the building from the outside, be excited, right. That they would be like, wait, is this a school? And then when they walked inside, was this still a school? It does not look like a school, which I love.
13:39
Danny
So can you paint a picture of what kids and staff experience as they enter this building? Just because this is an audio format. Right. And I bet right now people are getting excited. Okay, so you did build an institution. We get what a museum could be like, especially a kids museum. But what are some of the things that we might see or hear or experience?
14:02
Dr Vitale
I was really focused on and taken by all the museums I had visited. And I also had this amazing opportunity to visit the schools in Finland back in 2017. I think that was. And so that really impacted the way I think about schools and what they could be in America as well. So there's a little taste of the Finnish schools. There's a taste of our Pittsburgh children's museum. There are pieces that, all good ideas should be replicated, in my opinion. And you may not be able to do that necessarily in the business world with patents, but in schools and in education, we love to steal good ideas and give people credit. The Carnegie Science Museum here in Pittsburgh, I always loved when I was in that with my younger children, the big ramp, like, you didn't have to take the steps. Those are boring. You didn't have to take one of these circular ramps in the Helsinki library. It was a newer library when I had visited, and I thought, what a cool space like this is a learning space. So we have a circular ramp as soon as you open the foyer doors, and that is the first thing the kids see. That, too, is a learning space. And where we really landed through all of this brainstorming and meeting with stakeholders and involving a lot of people over many years, we landed. I kept pushing this notion that the building should be a teaching tool. It should be part of the learning, part of the teaching.
15:40
Dr Vitale
It shouldn't be just a space where we learn, but in every aspect of the building, there are little curious and curious questions that we pose throughout the outside of the building before you come into the building. So as soon as you park your car and look at the building, there are curious questions as soon as you come to the front of the building about why these pillars are angled? What are these measurements? This measures x amount of kips. What are kips? So we have metric, we have standard measurements, but we don't give the answers away. But the adults, too, are thinking about, what is the story here? What's going on here with these beams that are holding the canopy up? And in the.
16:48
Dr Vitale
Another question, I will tell you, I'd love for you to come see the building, but we'd love to have you in our canopy. I insisted that the lights portray the night sky in the month that we would open the building. And so they are placed in star constellations, what the September sky looked like in western Pennsylvania when we opened the building in the fall of 2022. But we don't give that away. We pose questions about, what do you think? What could these be that cost us? Nothing. So there are a lot of unique design components that are very cost efficient as well.
17:30
Danny
Yeah. Offline. We'll talk about a visit, because I feel like I have to see the place now. You're making me want to come.
17:38
Dr Vitale
It's a fun place. It's really a fun place for all learners of all ages.
17:42
Danny
And if we could backtrack a bit. I latched onto this idea because, big reason I didn't tell you this in the pre chat before we hit record, but this show was created because of the gaps that I found in my leadership. Right. The things that weren't taught at graduate school or within the district or whatever on how to be more effective as a leader. And I just knew. And so I figured if I talk to the Dr. Vitals of the world, learn from your stories of success and failure, and most importantly, implement one idea that you teach me, then I would grow, and I didn't know that it would change my life by doing this learning in public. But you've identified it. Sounds like a big gap for superintendents in terms of construction and designing learning spaces. Can you give an overview?
18:32
Danny
Because I don't think we'll have time to get into the nitty gritty details. You don't have to give a master class on this either, but just some sort of like, the big ideas of what a superintendent needs to sort of process when considering creating a new building that's not an institution. Right. Does that question make sense?
18:52
Dr Vitale
Yes, but it goes back even further that all of my ideas would not have put together a very good building. I'm one person, and I'm not the whole answer for a large community like Seneca Valley. And so we have 53,000 constituents. We have very diverse thinking, very different political parties on both sides of the aisle. And so how do you bring all these ideas of what people want in a building from all different ages? And therefore, I think even to go into a project like this, where I was lucky, where I had things in place that I didn't realize at the time when I was an assistant superintendent, I revamped the entire hiring process. That's really my expertise. Teacher selection. How do you find good teachers? How do you get them to the table? How do you recruit once they're there?
19:56
Dr Vitale
How do you grow them? How do you retain them? And that's a huge discussion right now in our country with the teacher shortages in schools, which is very different from the business world. And so I really focused on relationships. I focused on listening to people who had totally different ideas than me. And I might initially get defensive, like I did with my husband when he said, don't build another institution. But then being curious, saying, well, tell me what you mean by that. Let me think more deeply about that. And can I put my own ego, this person in front of me, whether they're an educator or not? And I think having a good team in place is what made this building so amazing. Good leaders, good teacher leaders, good administrators, good construction managers. It just was a whole conglomerate of people.
20:58
Dr Vitale
Because I might have had an idea of what the playground should have looked like based on a playground I saw in Helsinki. But what should that look like in the United States in our, I think those are the pieces that we sometimes miss the mark on with leadership in general, teachers or administrators. But the huge gap, even if I had a class in school construction, I'm not sure it would have helped me as much as getting the right experts to the table. And that is because of relationships. That is because of honoring diverse voices. That is because of setting aside your ego as a leader and saying, maybe I don't know everything, even after 28 years, and I don't involve stakeholders. But most importantly, we're not taught this as superintendents. I hope this is changing.
22:24
Danny
Solve this problem that we're facing. And the challenge is to not evaluate any idea as bad or dumb or wouldn't ever work. To get that judging mind out of the way, throw it all down. And what you'll find is some of those wild ideas are actually like really great solutions. I appreciate you sharing that and tapping into students. Actually, before we get to students, one more question. Obviously Helsinki, Finland. You were really inspired by spaces there. Pittsburgh and Children's Museum. I heard you say, were there any other spaces around the US? You might just tell the ruckus maker listening. Hey, check out what this school is doing in terms of how it's designed. It's a pretty cool thing to see and experience. We had a difficult time finding creative elementaries. Isn't that kind of sad?
23:19
Danny
It's very sad, actually.
23:21
Dr Vitale
If our most creative, craziest looking building should be elementaries, I'm now looking for high schools. And when I ask my colleagues, I get one or two, you know, maybe this school in California. I'm researching because of cost, that's one of the main driving forces, right? Because you have to be able to pay for it. And so that's another reason we build these square boxes, because it's cheaper. But we're at a time where kids won't sit in cubicles and square boxes and work anymore. So why are we doing this in schools? Why do we still have this factory model after all these years? And so I don't have a lot that I could prop up.
24:10
Dr Vitale
I did some neighboring newer schools who I was like, okay, I like the way they're using light, natural light, and Helsinki is known for that. All the Finnish schools are about getting kids outdoors. And when they're inside in the cold winter months, bringing the outdoors in through a lot of glass. And when I first started looking at it, I wanted a lot of glass, I wanted to bring the outside in. I want these spatial sight lines to be out in every room we're in. I started getting some and we built institutions. But I would argue if you are willing to be creative enough and listen to diverse voices, student voices, people of all ages, people in all different industries. You can still do it efficiently and cheaply, but it takes time. We were five years planning this out before we ever had design on paper.
25:13
Dr Vitale
A lot of research went into it before we hired the architects. Then the architects, of course, added to that. But before we brought architects in, we needed an idea of what we were looking for. And this building is shaped to explain from an audio perspective, like a Y. As you come in, that's the base of the Y. And then they branch out and it's two stories. On one side we have k to four, kindergarten to fourth grade, and on the other side, fifth and 6th. And they share specials. And the ramp leads you to our amazing kindergarten wing because you are curious. The proof is in the pudding. Like the ramp did. It cost us a lot of money, almost a million dollars. And people would say, I would have used that in classrooms. What to add to the box.
26:02
Dr Vitale
I really pushed and fought our stakeholders to spend the money on the ramp. And the proof is in the pudding. The first day we opened, I'm at the building. I went to all the buildings on the first day, but I wanted to be there when those buses arrived. And we always have some criers, kindergartners, they're afraid to leave home. They have some school phobias. And this was the least amount of criers we ever had. And one young lady, her mom walked her to the door, she wouldn't get on the bus. And I got down at her eye level, grabbed her hand, and I said, I'm Dr. Vitel, can I walk you in? And she said. Shook her head, I'm not sure. And I said, have you been in this building? Did you see the ramp? And she said, ramp? And I said, let me show you the ramp. And the doors opened and she saw this circular ramp and she looked up at me and, with a big smile, didn't know where her mother was at this point, didn't care, and said, I love that ramp. That's all she cared about. I love that ramp. Proof is in the pudding, right? And the kids still love it. And the adults still love it. And talk about getting your exercise. This ramp, the kids walk more in the building than they do taking. There are steps that they can take and there are steps on the five, six sides, but you're trying to pique their curiosity. They're full of energy. We can do things differently. We need to do things differently.
27:34
Danny
100%. And in my first book, I talked about how Disney shouldn't be the most magical place on earth. It should be our schools, and they're not. And so, again, isn't that kind of sad? Because it's not that Disney does have an advantage with their budget. Of course. And their human resources and their team. But the reason Disney works is not the money where kids can imagine and be curious and learn and play and have fun. I think that's something that you believe, too. It's coming through in the design of your elementary school here. And I just want to commend you on the work you're doing. I'd like to shift a bit to sort of like students and teachers. And since we're talking about shifts, the traditional model is like lecturing.
28:32
Danny
Teaching, maybe even, God forbid, but there's still classrooms, right? Rows and all this kind of stuff. And I talk about how teachers should move from imparting or banking knowledge to co-creating wisdom with students. And you believe teachers should be coaches and facilitators. Would you like to riff on that perspective at all and how you maybe help teachers see themselves as coach and facilitator versus traditional lecturer?
29:02
Dr Vitale
What's interesting, just this morning I was having a text exchange with our three assistant superintendents about teacher talk versus student talk in the classroom. In traditional classrooms, the teachers do the majority of the talking. I'm guilty. I'm the former. I like to call myself a rehabilitated middle school english teacher and a senior high english teacher who would have been put out of business by now with Chat GPT. But that's a discussion, maybe for later. So how can we get teachers to reflect without it being so evaluative? Because if I say, hey, did you ever think maybe you talked too much and maybe we should let the kids talk more? It's about learning more than it is about when my husband said, don't build another institution, that's not how I want to be treated. That's not how I personally grow.
29:57
Dr Vitale
In order for me to grow, I need to be curious. We think adult learning theory is different from children's learning theory, but it's not right. We all want to have a say in our learning. I don't want to read a book that you make me read. If we learned anything through the pandemic, it should have been that people want choice. Adults and kids give me a choice in my learning. Let me have a say in my learning. Regardless of my age. I don't care if you're four or five or you are 60 or 70. Let me have a choice. And so I think we have to approach teachers, and we try to, at Seneca Valley, we are not perfect. We're trying to get better every day about choices.
30:45
Dr Vitale
And so the question would be, have you ever thought about teacher talk versus student talk? And what do you want your classroom to be, and what's the research out there? Because there's a lot of research on why kids should be talking more than teachers in the classroom. And I don't mean unorganized, chaotic talk, although chaos is okay sometimes as well. But we're even beyond that. Whole teachers should be on the side as the sage instead of being on the stage. We're beyond that. We need to be in a place, the Internet, information technology, AI, that has replaced kids and don't need me to deliver information anymore. They need me to help them organize and to assess the information and to evaluate the information. That's how my job should be changing as a teacher. And our best, our master teachers, they got that a long time ago. And when I walk into those classrooms, they just blend like they're not standing in the front. As a matter of fact, we let the teachers in this new building choose their furniture. They did not choose a stationary desk.
32:04
Danny
How about that?
32:04
Dr Vitale
There's a desk kind of built into some cabinets. They chose a technology podium, for lack of a better word, on wheels, that they can move around should they need it. But if you go into any of these elementary classrooms, and especially in the new building, the building kind of supports that whole notion of, hey, I'm moving around with the kids. I'm a learner in this classroom, and I might be facilitating some of this, but I'm not leading all the learning, but I'm guiding it.
32:38
Danny
Yeah. That's so good. Do you know the company TeachfX, by any chance?
32:43
Dr Vitale
I think that was one of the products we were looking at. Where is this the one where you record yourself as a teacher and it'll let you know how much you talked versus the kids? We're looking at that as one of the products and trying to. Again, we don't want to rule out a product that a teacher will fear. Who's going to listen to this? And will the superintendent be listening to it? And will my principal knock me down on my evaluation? That's not what it's about. It's about growth. And so a product like that, we would try to pilot with volunteer teachers who hold the data themselves for reflection.
33:21
Danny
I bring it into the conversation because they've sponsored the podcast for years and I know the schools that use it are obviously seeing positive results. And since you brought up teacher talk time versus student talk, I just wanted to make sure you knew about it or the ruckus maker listening knew about it as well. All right, great. I really enjoyed our conversation. I don't want it to end. Let me ask you one more question. And I've been asking this to all my superintendent guests, but basically with Einstein, he famously talked about if he had a problem to solve, he'd ask a question to ask and then spend 5 minutes to actually answer the question. Right. So I'm just curious as we end, you know, what's a question you would hope that more educators were asking right now?
34:23
Dr Vitale
What is AI? How will it impact teaching and learning? And I'm not as smart as Einstein, so I would spend my 55 minutes talking to kids about this.
34:38
Danny
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for being a guest.
34:42
Dr Vitale
Thank you for having me.
34:42
Danny
I appreciate you.
Mastering the Mindset
You know what's fascinating? When someone joins a leadership community, they often think they don't belong. They worry they're not experienced enough, smart enough, qualified enough to contribute. Here's the truth I've discovered after running masterminds for school leaders. The most impactful leaders are the ones who start as the best listeners. They show up, stay curious, and focus first on learning from others before trying to prove themselves. In education. We're facing unprecedented challenges. If leaders try to figure everything out alone, they're going to not only burn out, but they'll also make costly mistakes and ultimately fail the teachers and students who need them the most. I remember when Chris Loeffler first joined our mastermind. He was transitioning from teaching to administration and worried he had nothing to offer the group.
But he showed up consistently, listened intently, started small, offering the teacher's perspective when others were stuck. Seven years later, he's now the head of Lower School, earned through his presence, curiosity and creativity. His faculty gave him a standing ovation when the position was announced, and even a student from 13 years ago reached out and DM'd him that he was a legend. Thanks for hit and Play. If you love exploring how to do school differently so you can make a legendary impact on your campus, you're in the right place. I'm Danny Bauer and this is the Better Leaders, Better Schools Podcast, the original Ruckus cast for visionary leaders, innovators and rebels in education. Thanks to listeners just like you, this show ranks in the top 1% of over 3 million worldwide shows.
In today's conversation, I speak with Chris Loeffler, who is now the head of Wilmington Friends Lower School. Prior to this role, Chris spent seven years in administration, 13 years in the classroom, and even graduated from Wilmington Friends. His experience as a student where he felt valued and given a voice in a peaceful environment, motivates him as an educator to provide the same experience for each of his students. We cover topics like building confidence as a new leader, the power of learning communities, and the three principles that guided him through Covid and beyond: Be present, be curious, and be creative. So once again, thanks for listening and we'll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsors. Hey, Ruckus Maker, I'll make this quick. If you're listening to this message right now, you're missing out.
02:42
Danny
When you subscribe to the Ruckus Maker newsletter on Substack, you get access to micro books focused on how to do school, different tools and other resources that will help you make a Ruckus and do school different stories and case studies of the world's most legendary ruckus. Makers of all time, access to my calendar to schedule coaching sessions. And you'll also get bonus podcast content that won't be released on the main podcast feed and podcast episodes without any advertisements. So if you love this show, if it's helped you grow and you want access to more tools and resources that will help you make a ruckus and do school different and become a paid [email protected] that's ruckusmakers.substack.com I'm sure you've heard that energy flows to where attention goes, right? If you want to get more of what you want when you want it.
03:44
Danny
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04:43
Danny
Now, Quest Food Management Services elevates the student dining experience, serving scratch made meals using high quality ingredients that are sourced locally and responsibly. Now that is food you can be proud to serve. Learn more about Quest Food management [email protected] or follow Quest Food on social media. That's quest fms.com all right, Chris, welcome to the show.
05:15
Chris
Thanks, Danny. Glad to be here.
05:17
Danny
So what? Definitely dig into the Mastermind experience in a little bit. I mean, we've known each other for years now. Seven, eight?
05:27
Chris
I think it's actually about seven years now. It was about seven years ago in September that I joined the Mastermind.
05:36
Danny
September. That's a big month. Origin day for this whole project is September 2, 2015. So thank you for joining in September. But tell me, Chris, about life and leadership before you joined the Ruckus Maker Mastermind.
05:52
Chris
Well, they coincided with my shift into formal leadership at the time that I was joining The Mastermind. And I did that on purpose. I was shifting from a teaching role in the classroom from fifth grade into an administrative position, so assistant, basically assistant principal, assistant head of our lower school. I shifted into that role. And I remember one of our masterminds, I think you were there still leading. You asked the question, like, what's your relationship with worry? And I like my relationship with worry. I get worried, and then I try. I act on it to make sure I feel prepared. And in that case, I lucked into listening to your podcast, the episode you were on, Cult of Pedagogy with Jennifer Gonzalez, and heard about Mastermind. I was like, that is what I need.
06:41
Chris
I need other people who are in leadership positions, because I know I'm going to be somewhat isolated in this new position. And so that's when I found your website, reached out to you, connected, and I think about a month later, I was in the Guiding principles Mastermind. SThose two things came together at the same time, kind of because I was scared. I was worried about, like, will I be good at this job? Do I have any idea what I'm doing? The answer is no. So maybe I should find some other people who can help me answer questions. And that's. And I got exactly what I needed out of the group. So right away I was able to ask questions. When things came up and I didn't know the answer, I had a group I could connect to. So that. That worked out really well.
07:29
Danny
The challenge, the catalyst was you were moving from teacher to administrative. And it's like, okay, how do I do this? And, okay, you wanted that environment. So it certainly works for somebody new to school leadership. And we'll get to win because you have a new position. I do want to talk about that at some point, but seven years, Right. And now you're more of a seasoned school leader. So. And I'll just be like, candid. Right. You know, I founded groups. I've learned whether it's a school or a business, any organization. You're the chief opportunity and the chief bottleneck. And I had this vision of helping every ruckus maker who wants to learn how to do school differently. And I had to fire myself. I left the main head coaching role, formed the coaching team, and we grew from four cohorts to 10 or 11.
Danny
There's a lot. And that's because I got out of the way. That's one insight for me that I wanted to share with the Ruckus Maker listening. But for you're now a seasoned leader. I'm no longer the head coach, so to speak. Why do you stick around?
08:42
Chris
Because there's still lots to learn. I still don't know everything. I love the books we read. I get a lot of value out of those. And I feel like it's one of those weird things where whatever book we're reading, it feels like I'm able to apply it to what's going on. We just started Clear Thinking, and it applied. Just the first chapter applied pretty clearly to a challenging sort of situation here at school and trying to help myself think about what's getting in the way of my own clear thinking. And I identified with the ego defaults in the first chapter, and so that helped me reframe the challenge. Okay, what am I not asking myself? What am I not thinking about? Or what am I acting on too quickly? I think that was sort of the situation. It's like, what am I trying to do too quickly and not reflecting on in order to be more effective than my communication? And so it is. Those little things when you read, whether it's something like Clear thinking, which almost definitely applies, or other books that don't directly apply to our work with other people or teaching, there's always a way to connect those and just makes you pause and step back. And I think that's a big piece of the conversations with every week that I get out of the Mastermind is one, it just forces me to step back. Two, it allows me to hear how other people read the same things in a different way.
10:06
Chris
And then obviously, the hot seat is that opportunity to both ask questions when you're on it and get direct feedback or listen to other people work through similar challenges. I think especially early on, I took so much from listening to hot seat conversations. You know, I didn't. I didn't have a whole lot to contribute early. I could. I. What I contributed early was like, here's what the teacher perspective might be in that, because I hadn't really shifted into, like, the administrative perspective yet. So I did a lot of listening. And interestingly enough, those situations came up at our school. And then I was like, oh, all right. I've heard about this before, and this is how that school dealt with it, and this is what this person said, and so then I could take those and you know, in our sort of administrative team say, here's another way to think about it. Or here's how I think this school is dealing with it. Or I could reach out to that mastermind member that I already knew and say, hey, we're dealing with this. How'd that go for you? And you get kind of automatic feedback. Kind of. It's not in your same school, but it's like boots on the ground feedback. It's not just ideas that are living in your head and you poke, work out. It's somebody who's actually tried different strategies out and you see if they worked or not and what might work at your school or not. Yeah.
11:22
Danny
No, I appreciate you breaking into the hot seat a bit because when I'm doing exploration calls and seeing if the master might be a good fit for probably a podcast listener or somebody who finds us somehow I say that it helps you be proactive. Because you do hear situations that either remind you to be preparing for or you learn things like totally off your radar and then it happens in your school and you have that surreal moment. It's like, oh, my gosh, we talked about this a week, a month, a year ago, but you're ready. The other thing that I love about it, obviously you get your challenges solved or you make progress on them, but you get an insight into how other leaders think, which I think that right there is gold. Invaluable.
12:08
Danny
But how do you describe the hot seat in your own words? And maybe I don't know if there's examples that you want to share or things that you've heard. You know, you don't have to give anybody's names, but just like, generally the type of stuff that you discuss.
12:21
Chris
I think the hot seat can really be anything. Sometimes I'll just speak for my personal question. Sometimes they're very much a I'm having this challenge I've challenged communicating with this colleague. Here's the situation. Give me some feedback. Sometimes it's very personal. I've asked some very, like, career oriented, like, where do I go next? What do I do with this? How do I pursue this goal? Those are two that I've gotten some really good feedback from. I know I made progress in those conversations. But there's a lot of curricular work. I actually think most of them probably now that I think about it are relational in some way. I think that, and that is probably maybe because most of us were teachers, most of us were in the classroom and we thought long and hard and practiced working with students and then we shifted into administrative roles and then we had to learn, relearn how to work with adults in a different way. It's not when you're a teacher, you're working with adults, but you're on the same level. You're in the workroom, you're just kind of hanging out and talking. But when you're now responsible for making things happen, you have to work with people in a different way. And that is not a skill set that anybody taught me. I don't think many people will learn it in a specific, explicit way. I think the hot seat often comes down to those kind of relational questions.
13:43
Chris
How do I relate to that person better? How do I connect to them? Because the ones I have asked are sort of some like school related questions and you get some good feedback. But it's hard sometimes it's hard to get feedback from the other school because you don't know all the workings of it. But you can ask some really good questions. Whereas the relational questions a lot of people will be able to share good examples of like I've been in a similar situation. Here's what I did, here are the words I use. Here's what did not work. Like don't do that.
14:12
Danny
That is a non examples.
14:13
Chris
I think the relationship questions are probably the most common. And you know, they're the hardest in some ways the hardest we deal with. I think all of us in some ways are like, we like systems and trying to organize schedules and how the curriculum fits together and just give us some time. Well, we can probably figure that out on our own. The relational ones are a lot harder. It's a lot harder. Your spin, your wheels can spin pretty far off track if it's. You're just in your own head. So having the team help you kind of keeps you hopefully steered in the right direction. Yeah.
14:46
Danny
Two points to that. The people's work is messy and there's not a lot of like you can't open the binder and be like, okay, a person acts this way. Here's the response. You really have to spitball that and workshop it with people you trust. And the other point I wanted to make is like reflecting. I'll have you reflect, not answer, but just think about it. Same thing with the Ruckus Maker. you probably know the leaders that you worked with, worked for who weren't working on the messy people parts, right? Because they suck to work with. Like, they're difficult themselves. They seem to maybe repeat the same mistakes, and you're just like, man, what's going on and eventually you leave.
15:28
Danny
I think at this point, I stopped counting the amount of schools that have blue ribbons, principal of the year promotions, which we'll get to yours. And just like the feedback, oh, yeah, we're having the best year since the pandemic or blah, blah, blah. Right. The culture's the highest it's ever been. So th. Those are the things that really are satisfying for me. I want to take a few steps back. So you found me through the podcast with Jennifer. So shout out to the cult of pedagogy. That's like, what a podcast. I call her the goat. The greatest of all time. She really is amazing. I'm thankful to have been on her show all those years ago. I'm just curious, were you evaluating any other opportunities? So you found us. You explored it. You chose to jump in. Were there other things you were thinking, like, okay, maybe that's. That's the thing?
16:18
Chris
No, I didn't really have any other. I didn't know where else to turn, to be honest. I felt really lucky that I found it. I think the year before, maybe a year and a half before, I'd done sort of like teaching leadership this with A.J. Giuliani. I don't know if he still does it. It was called Innovative Educators Group or something like that. And it was really good. But it wasn't administrative in any way. It was more about how you do. How to be innovative in the classroom. So that was actually like a step in that. A step in the direction. It was a kind of a virtual group. We didn't zoom together very often, if. If even at all.
16:52
Chris
I think we made a lot of connections through blog posts and email. But that was my first kind of foray into that world, like, how to connect with people. Because it's weird to think now that zoom was so new when I started.
17:05
Danny
We have done it since 2016.
17:07
Chris
I didn't know what it was until I joined them. And now everybody knows it. And so at that point, I was kind of getting even just figuring out what those worlds were those kinds of virtual connection worlds and. Being in an online community felt fun and unique and kind of novel at that point. Now it's the norm. I hadn't really considered other opportunities just because I didn't even know what else was out there. The only thing I really knew of was sort of the, like, potentially going back and getting. I'd done my master's in curriculum work, but I didn't really want to go back and do another master's for leadership. I didn't feel like it would help me the way I wanted, so. But I also didn't know what else was there.
17:48
Chris
So this was the kind of first and best opportunity.
17:54
Danny
On. Any fears or reservations prior to joining?
17:58
Chris
Yeah, why should I even be there? That was like the imposter syndrome fear. Right? I can't believe they're letting me in. I don't have any leadership. That idea. I have zero leadership experience. I've never been an assistant principal, and they're letting me be part of their group. I just kind of wanted to hold my own for a little while and not look or sound like an idiot when I joined.
18:24
Danny
How'd you get past it then?
18:26
Chris
A lot of listening, and then you get some positive feedback. You say something that you put yourself out there in the group and you say something that you think is valuable, and then somebody says, like, wow, that's okay. That's a really different way to think about it. Thanks for sharing. You're like, oh, okay, I have something to contribute. I think that's the key, if you find those moments where you're like, all right, I can contribute to this group. And then it gives you courage to continue to do that. And then. And you find yourself, like, depending on the meeting. Some meetings are more quiet and some meetings are more vocal. And it depends on the topic, really, and maybe the day and what happened that day.
19:02
Chris
But some things I have experience with and some things I don't, and it's okay. And I think that there's no pressure on the group that everybody has to respond every time that you have to be on fire when you're there. It's to bring what you can to the group. Just contribute as much as you can, and that's going to be good enough tonight. And we will, like, collaboratively lift things up. So some people will lift a little bit more this week than next. And that's how it is. There's a balance to it. And it takes some of that pressure off that you don't feel like you have to be perfect and you know the answer to anything. All you have to do is listen and ask good questions. To be honest,
19:42
Danny
. No, I tell everybody's earned an A or you have an A, not earned it. And I say there's nothing you could earn or nothing you could do to lose it. So. And I get that book from the Art of Possibility, which. It's so stupid. I don't know if you even know this, but that's. The company name is 12 practices because of the 12 practices from the Art. That book.
20:04
Chris
I didn't know that connection, actually.
20:05
Danny
Yeah. But it so it's. It means it's meaningful to me but confuses every school district because 12 practices. Better leaders, better schools. And I've done this stuff so many times. I'm just like, oh, dude. Anyways, this about you. Anything surprised you when you. When you joined, started using it?
20:27
Chris
Nothing that I remember, like, at the time that I was like, wow, I couldn't. I didn't expect that to happen. I think now, looking back on it, one of the best things that I couldn't have predicted to come out of it is the connection with people from all different types of schools and how. How we can support each other despite being in very different places and different. Whether it's high school, elementary school, city kind of suburb, country school, all those different setups of schools. Like I'm in a private Quaker small school in Wilmington, Delaware. That's not very unique. Different. It's unique. And every school is actually very unique. And so what you find is that the. One of the most important parts of the Mastermind is all those different, unique perspectives that come to it. That somebody in a really big public school, kind of the opposite of what our school is, can make a significant impact on what you do. They have an idea that they've tried, and you're like, wow, Like, I can take that and apply it right away. And maybe it's just something they've learned through their experience. Maybe it's a system that they've put in place. So that I don't know if I realized how valuable those disparate experiences would be in helping me gain knowledge and wisdom through the Mastermind.
21:44
Danny
Awesome. I'll tell you, I really enjoyed this conversation. And completely candidly, these kinds of conversations with Mastermind members is literally my favorite kind of conversation to record. So I just want to express gratitude to you because this is so much fun and satisfying to me and rewarding compared to every other episode I do. So thank you for that. We're going to take a real quick break here to get some messages in from our sponsors and when we come back, we'd love to hear about the hardest parts of using the Mastermind. If there are any helpful lessons, big wins and we'll get to that in a second. Teachers love the support that IXL provides in the classroom and Ruckus Makers love it as well because IXL also gives school leaders meaningful insights into every level.
22:32
Danny
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23:43
Danny
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24:40
Danny
So go to organizedbinder.com/ruckus and then when you check out, use the code RUCKUS30. Now spell RUCKUS ALL CAPS and 30 for 30 to get that 30% discount in free shipping. So one more time Grab executive functions for every classroom. Go to organizebinder.com/ruckus and use the code ruckus30 for that discount and free shipping. All right, and we're back with Chris Loeffler. And yeah, thanks for being such a great Ruckus maker and recording this with me. And let's go to the hard bits. I don't know, I mean, it'd be interesting to see how you answer this, but were there any hard parts or challenges in terms of connecting or quote unquote, using the Mastermind?
25:29
Chris
I don't know if anything has been hard other than just sort of you. And I got on this call today and life and work got busy. So you have a plan for how you're going to approach things. And then school what happens at school changes and then whatever happens in your life changes it. I think that it can feel hard at times that for me it's 7:30 on Wednesday night. Literally last night. I had my group last night and my heater wasn't working.
25:56
Danny
Oh, no.
25:57
Chris
So my wife had to take my son to basketball practice. And I am not a handy person by any means, but YouTube helped me a little bit. And you know, that was at 7:00 and I'm trying to like, all right, can I fix a furnace in 30 minutes so I can get on my Mastermind call? And luckily my neighbor up the street had helped us once before. I called him, he came down, helped me. You know, I tried all the YouTube videos, didn't they? They weren't fixing it. And then I got on my call about 10 minutes late and it was fine and I joined in and I was able to contribute. But those things can make it hard at times, it can feel like there are definitely weeks where I felt more distracted than others.
26:37
Chris
When I'm on my computer and my emails in the background and I'm like, I could look at that and send that thing. I like it there. It does take some discipline. I definitely like routines. As an athlete. I liked having practiced every day. I was better when I practiced every day than when I had some sort of open free time. So I think there's some discipline to it and making yourself stay present because that can be hard at 7:30 on a Wednesday night when life is kind of taking unexpected turns. So I think that can be hard. But once you're there and you connect with the people in the group that you have gotten to know over years, that feels a little easier. But from week to week, that could be tricky.
27:17
Danny
Yeah, it's fun to see the energy change that people come in with and then leave with. But how. How do you get past that? Because, to be honest, I think the majority of people pull the eject line, experience just a little bit of friction, and they're likeI'm done and maybe even I quit. But not you. You continue to show up and engage. So you know why I. I heard that you like routine, but that can't be the only reason.
27:43
Chris
I think it goes back to that. It's very similar to that first. The first time I contributed and got sort of positive feedback. Last night in our Zoom we talked about one of our Mastermind members who was taken on a new position. We were able to provide some advice from those of us who have been through a similar situation. And again, it's her saying thank you. It's reminding yourself each week, not every week, but most weeks, that I have something valuable to provide to the group, and the group has something valuable to provide to me. You know, when like, part, like, I. We'll talk about it, but like, I'm now in the head of lower school position, which wasn't necessarily the goal when I started, right?
28:27
Chris
It wasn't like, well, I'll join the Mastermind and the Mastermind will help me get in the shop. that wasn't it. But like you said, like, I've achieved a goal and it's crossed my mind, like, do I need this? And then there'll be a week where like, yep, I definitely need it, right? Then somebody. Somebody provides this little nugget of wisdom that you're like, this is why I'm here. And that's what keeps coming back.
28:50
Danny
Got it. So would you consider that a big win because you were interrupted and now you're the official head? Was that a big moment for you?
28:58
Chris
Yeah, that was huge. It was big in a way that I actually didn't expect, you know. The head of the Lower school decided to take another position in March of two years ago. 23, I guess. And so it was one of those, like, all right, we're going to name you interim. And that made sense. It was like, yep, I've been thinking about becoming, moving from assistant head to head already, and it makes sense to do it here, and I feel like I can do it well. And they made it a two year position for a couple reasons I won't explain, but I was comfortable with that. I thought it would give me a year to kind of hopefully figure things out without having to interview, which actually I appreciated. And then over the summer we talked about it and had the conversation about officially becoming head. And so they announced it. I guess it was the second week of school and I, it was like I had been doing the job. So it wasn't big in the way that this is big and new. The big part was the unexpected response I got from my, the faculty clapped for me when our head of school announced it. Like that was really cool. Like I didn't expect to feel the way I did. I didn't expect them to respond the way they did.
30:09
Danny
How did you feel?
30:10
Chris
Because it feels like we're just doing the same thing. It's not different. Right. I just know I don't have an interim in front. It's not changing anything. But they were really excited for me and that was awesome. And then I got feedback from parents who were like, this is great. We know you're going to be great. Like I didn't know how many people I would hear from. People came out of the woodwork in a way. I told we had to go back to school at night. I think it will be next week. I told the story at our back to school night actually as a way to encourage more positive feedback on a regular basis. Like don't wait for people to get new positions to tell them you like them.
30:43
Chris
And I said like one of the most powerful ones I got was a message on LinkedIn from a student I had taught probably 13 years ago.
30:54
Danny
Whoa.
30:55
Chris
I hadn't talked to that kid as realistic. I don't remember talking to that kid after he left my third grade class. And he was like, this is great, you are. He called me a legend in his message. I was like, I had no idea that you really liked me that much. I didn't know that. Like I thought he was a good student. We connected and the type sort of teacher student way, but nothing like spectacular. And that meant a lot to me when he sent that message and you know, I got a couple of those messages. I was like it would have been great. It would have been great if I had known that a while ago. But it's also really just awesome to hear now. So that was big in a way that I couldn't have predicted.
31:34
Danny
Why, why does that matter? You think?
31:36
Chris
It gave me confidence that, yep, I am the right person for the job. It's not just I've been here for 20 years, so there is a, like in the back of the mind, not a big thing, but like in the back of my mind, like, did I just get the position by default? So having people say, we believe in you, I mean, that always matters and it especially mattered in that moment to give me more confidence going forward that, yep, I am the right person for it and I can do great things for the school. It gives me confidence to continue doing what I tried to do last year and want to keep doing. I mean, I think having students say we appreciate you is different than parents, is different than faculty.
And they all mean something in different ways because. And in some ways you need all three of those to feel confident you can do the job well.
32:26
Danny
Any other helpful lessons, wins, milestones that you'd like to share with the Ruckus Maker listening?
32:33
Chris
I guess I would say I share. This is the advice I shared last night in our mastermind to the mastermind member who's taking on a similar position. What I said is taking on an interim role is you are the best person for the job. The school, the people, they trust you in a way that it would be hard for any other person to like to step in from the outside and do well. Some people said it to me and I would disagree with them and I still kind of disagree with the idea that like an interim position is a year long interview. And I know it kind of is, it's not wrong, but I don't think it's healthy to think of it that way.
33:07
Chris
I don't think it would be a good idea to go through your year thinking about, like, I'm constantly in an interview and so I tried not to. It definitely was on my mind at times, but mainly it was just let me just do this job. Like I have to believe in myself and just do the job as well as I can. And if I'm the right person, I'll get the job. And if I'm not, I won't. And that's actually okay too. Like, maybe this isn't the right position. I hope it is. I think it is. But so I think my advice was just to trust yourself and do the job the way you know how to do it. And with doing any job, you're going to make mistakes. And if you do want to think of it as an interview, make sure that you remember your response to those mistakes are as important as any decision you can possibly make. You're going. You can't get it perfect. And so the way you respond is how. What will send the message to your faculty, your parents, the people who will eventually make that hiring decision. That's how you respond is probably the most important thing you can do when you're making decisions, because you're not going to get it right all the time.
34:14
Danny
I think the Ruckus Maker listening sees why you're a legend. This is really good. So we started what life and leadership was like prior to joining the Mastermind. What's it like now? How's it different?
34:27
Chris
I have a community. And I think it is very important, you define it as Ruckus makers. It's not just any community. It is a pretty clearly defined community that this is the way that we want to do school. So anybody walking into it, anybody who comes on because you jump on a zoom on a Wednesday night and sometimes there's a new person who's joining your group. And every time, I trust that person is there for the right reasons. And when you have a community that you can trust everybody there to support you in some way, it. I guess it kind of breathes and builds that confidence that I have a lot to learn. I want to learn, I'm going to learn, and I've got a community that will help me get there. Whatever.
35:11
Chris
I kind of choose whatever path I choose to take, because there are a million of them in this kind of world that there is. There's going to be people around me to help me with it no matter what. And I don't know, that's sort of priceless in a way. Like, you can't. Like I said at the beginning, I don't think there's any master's degree or PhD that can give you that.
35:32
Danny
So what advice you have for somebody who was in a similar position to you before you joined.
35:37
Chris
I would tell them to join or at least try it. We were in Nashville this summer and there were a couple people there who were not part of a Mastermind yet. And somebody asked me a similar question and I told them the story. Here's why I joined. And if that resonates with you, then you should join. I imagine there are also people who our group wouldn't work for, and that's okay. And so it's not to say that everybody should be in. I mean, I would find it hard to believe I think everybody, every principal should find a group like ours in whatever fashion that is. If that's just your principals in your district or people who you already know.
36:17
Chris
But having a group that you can use as a sounding board, that can be your support mechanism, it's. I think it's critical to sustaining success. Right, because we can all have good moments. But to keep things going, to keep momentum, you need other people to help you because you're going to hit some pretty hard moments, too. And you need those people to lift you up out of it. So it is, it's nice to say, I know that group is there when I'll need it. Hopefully I don't need it too often in that way, but if I do, they will be there to help me.
36:52
Danny
I appreciate that answer. We hope we have a group for the Ruckus Maker listening. But at the end of the day, we're just trying to promote this sort of category of personalized creative leadership development that unfortunately isn't the norm that's out there, but you can find it. We're not the only ones doing it. We did introduce it, right? We didn't introduce it. I'll say to the industry, we are the category king, but if we're not the right group for you, that's okay. Yeah, but the enemy isolation, right? The enemy is the status quo. And so, yeah, if you want, if that resonates with you, then we might have a spot for you. How would you describe your experience in either one word or one phrase?
37:36
Chris
I think the word is growth. You know, there is. There's just so much growth that happens, and it does take time and effort. I actually think about my second year teaching as a lead. For some reason, this story has always stood out to me. I had. I started in third grade and a teacher across the hall was in fourth grade. We both started. We were both new at the same time, that she had been teaching for a long time, but just came to our school that year and I was brand new and I had a tough group, and it was probably a tough group and probably a tough group because I was new and I survived that year and often asked her for help.
38:13
Chris
And somehow I don't really remember why, but in the second year, she made a comment to me about how different I sounded in the second year, how much more confident I sounded. And I didn't know it, but she heard something different in my voice. I still don't really know what it was, but that was just through growth. That was through experience. And I think when I'm sure I would've grown in my position regardless in some way. I would've grown regardless of joining the Mastermind or not. But I know I grew more because of it. I know that my confidence, that sort of confidence that took me a year to achieve in my first year of teaching, didn't take as long to achieve because of the Mastermind, because it helped me. I knew I could go find answers. Because in your first year of teaching, you might walk across the hall and ask another teacher, but you're just trying to survive that year. You're just trying to stay afloat. I knew I could find answers when I needed them, and that was through the Mastermind.
39:11
Danny
Do we miss anything that feels important that you want to share about this topic? And then we'll head to the last three questions I ask every guest. And it's okay if the answer is.
39:19
Chris
No and nothing's coming to mind. I think we're good.
39:23
Danny
Cool. So if Chris could put one message on all school marquees around the world for a single day, what would your message be?
39:31
Chris
I was thinking before we started of different quotes that I like, because I figured somebody else can probably say something better than I can, and I couldn't nail one down. And I actually came to something that I wrote on my whiteboard in my office during COVID as a way to help me stay focused. And this is a shortened version of it. But what I would say is, be present, be curious, and be creative. And I wrote that on my board or a version of that on my board because I felt like if I could do those things every day, then I would be okay. Then I would be doing my job really well so I could be present with people and listen to them and care about them and not say too many things or try to problem solve right away, just be present, then that's where I needed to start. And then in that presence of listening and observing, if I could just be curious again, not jumping to problem solving for other people, if I could just ask the right question, then I'd be okay. And if I could be curious or be creative rather than stuck in the status quo, then we'd all be okay. So that would get me to a point where I could be successful that day.
40:40
Chris
So I think if everybody can kind of take that start with presence and just being with each other and not try to do more than that. Being curious and having good conversations and asking good questions and then being creative in our approach and our problem solving that we take on every day, then, yeah, and we'll be okay.
40:58
Danny
You build your dream school. No limitations in terms of resources. Your only constraint is your ability to imagine. So what would be the three guiding principles of building your dream school?
41:10
Chris
The cool thing is that when I came up with the previous answer, it led me to this answer, too. So those are. All right, if those would be the three quotes. If those things are at the core of who we are as a school, then it'll be a pretty good school. So nice when I think about it because at first I was like, well, where would the school be and what would be in it? And I'm lucky to be in a school that sits kind of in the middle of the woods. And it's awesome. But there are also really awesome schools in the middle of a city. And there are awesome schools all over the place that they're not awesome because they're in that place. They're awesome because of what they do in that place. I think they are. And that's part of being present. You need to be present in that space. So whatever your environment is, be kind of connected to that environment, whether it's in nature, whether it's in a city setting. I think it's. You need to be aware of what's around and be present in there in a very intentional way. How are you using the environment around you, not just within the walls of your school, but also being present, like I said, listening to each other. I would want to make sure that our school was intentional about teaching kids and maybe teaching faculty and parents how to listen to each other really well making sure that we're with each other and not making too many assumptions, not jumping to conclusions, that we are just present with each other, that when things are challenging, we're curious and we ask great questions. I think the best.
42:37
Chris
The best leaders I've ever worked with, but also just sort of the best people I know are present with you and curious about you. And so if we can. If we can promote those two things, like those really do, kind of come first. If we can promote those. I do think about young kids just because I'm an elementary person. If we can promote being present, being curious about each other, then that leads to creativity. Because if you ask the right questions, then you get better, more effective, but also more creative solutions. I think our worst ideas are when we make assumptions and jump to conclusions, we think we know what's best.
43:14
Chris
I learned I've been lucky to do a lot of work with design thinking over the years, and that idea of having empathy as your first stage. And really with that, it's asking the right questions and learning about what the problem is or what the situation is and not assuming you know how to answer that question or even. Even if you know what the problem is. If we don't assume we know what the problem is, then we're actually more likely to find what the real situation, the real challenge is, and then we can find creative solutions to that because we're asking the right question, we've defined it in the right way. If we can create schools where kids learn how to be present with each other, how to be curious about each other, and then how to be creative when they take on problem solving, then we're making the world a better place.
43:59
Danny
Yeah, legendary. A lot of times we're just answering the wrong question, and it's a gigantic waste of time. I think you had a little mini masterclass on that. All right, well, Chris, we covered a lot of ground today, and I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation about everything we discussed. What's the one thing you want a ruckus maker to remember?
44:19
Chris
Not like a brook and record and say those three things. Be present, be curious, be creative. But also, I'll add this asterisk. Find your own version of that, too. That works for me.That worked during the weirdest time probably in most of our lives during COVID That helped me get through it. So each of us is gonna have our own version of that and whatever mantra that becomes, whatever phrase reminder you need. Yeah, make it personal, too. Don't if that works for you, great. It's like, if the mastermind works for you, great. But it's okay to create your own version of that, too. Make it your own. Make it personal. Make it something that you can stick to.
44:57
Chris
Because I think you and I are similar, Danny, and we like to try new things. I was listening to one of your podcasts lately about, I can't remember all the numbers that you like, defined you in different ways. And, like, you like to try lots of new things. I do the same, which means I also let things. I try things and then let them go. That one is stuck for whatever reason. I think we have to be willing to try new things, figure out what works for us and then when something sticks keep it, make it work for as long as you can.
45:26
Danny
Thanks for listening to the Better Leaders Better Schools podcast Ruckus Maker. How would you like to lead with confidence, swap exhaustion for energy, turn your critics into cheerleaders, and so much more? The Ruckus Maker Mastermind is a world class leadership program designed for growth minded school leaders just like you. Go to betterleadersbetterschools.com/mastermind learn more about our program and fill out the application. We'll be in touch within 48 hours to talk about how we can help you be even more effective. And by the way, we have cohorts that are diverse and mixed up. We also have cohorts just for women in leadership and a BIPOC only cohort as well. When you're ready to level up, go to better leadersbetterschools.com/mastermind and fill out the application. Thanks again for listening to the show. Bye for now and go make a Ruckus.
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