Why Your Edtech Is Failing Students (And What to Do Instead) with Kris Rockwell

00:03
Speaker 1
The idea that Silicon Valley is defining how humans will interact in the future is the most perverse thing that's ever happened in the history of society. And I think there's some truth there. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, some of these things are. I mean, they're driven to keep you engaged, and they're driven to keep you engaged through a variety of different means, but they produce those little dopamine hits that really keep you going over and over again and wanting more. 

00:30
Speaker 2
Foreign still scrambling for supplies like it's 1999, ODP Business Solutions streamlines everything from pencils to projectors so you can focus on what matters, making an impact. Visit ODP business.comeducation to learn more. That's ODP business.com education as districts look ahead to the coming school year, the groundwork starts earlier than you might think. The way professional learning is designed can shape culture, collaboration, and stability long before students arrive. Frontline Education's 2026 K12 lens report takes a closer look at how districts are connecting professional growth to stronger staffing stability. Download the full [email protected] leaders to learn more. That's frontlineducation.com leaders IXL is a go to support for classroom teachers because its adaptive platform makes differentiated instruction easy. See for yourself. Get started [email protected] leaders. That's ixl.com leaders. The best leadership coaches, they don't hand you answer. They help you discover the insight yourself through curiosity and inquiry. 

02:09
Speaker 2
Questions that help you see your situation differently. That's exactly what digital Danny does. And you can get started with him at myprincipalcoach.com Ruckus that's my principalcoach.com Ruckus. All right. And Chris, welcome back to the show. 

02:32
Speaker 1
Thank you. Very happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. 

02:35
Speaker 2
There's not a ton of people that have been on the show multiple times. Mitch Weathers, who's become a close friend, he's on all the time. Right. Like, but nobody has been on in two spots in such a condensed amount of time. So whatever that is, maybe we're going to print off 3D, print an award for you and send it to. 

02:56
Speaker 1
You know, I love that idea. 

02:59
Speaker 2
Amazing. 

02:59
Speaker 1
Well, thank you. I'm glad to be back. Honored to be here. 

03:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. And just to give some context, you know, to whoever's listening, reviewing, we did a show with Chris recently and it was really well received by y'. 

03:12
Speaker 1
All. 

03:12
Speaker 2
So we'll have that you know, linked up, if you want to catch the first one. Definitely want to do that. We talked a lot about AI, of course, screen time with students. You know, Chris is over at Play Piper as well, and they're doing some really great stuff with their kids over there. And yeah, just thought it'd be fun to have another conversation. When Riverside, of course, did my annual, like, wrap up. Everybody does a Spotify wrap up now, right? Everybody has stolen that. Of course, AI was the number one topic covered on the show. And I think, you know, that's not going to slow down or stop anytime soon, but maybe we should start because kind of recent news in terms of, I think it was Meta and YouTube brought to court, lost, I think a big case there. 

04:01
Speaker 2
And that had to do with, I guess, intentionally building stuff that's harmful for kids. But yeah, just would love to hear, you know, sort of your thoughts and what you saw happening and playing out in real time. 

04:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty big, that's a pretty big judgment. Not necessarily financially for either of those companies, but I think probably in a statement of what's been happening and what is happening, I think that's a pretty big statement. You know, when we look at screen time and how much, you know, kids in particular are spending on screens, that's certainly a big motivator, you know, to be there. And that's certainly something that keeps them coming back and keeps them staring at these little screens. And, you know, I, I think that indictment says a lot. You know, I, I go back to what I think I said in the last time because it is one of my. 

04:58
Speaker 2
It's. 

04:59
Speaker 1
I don't have a whole lot of memorized quotes, but the one that I do have memorized is from. I think I'm saying his name wrong too, but Jerome Lanier, who was the godfather of virtual reality, who had a conference on learning and digital learning and games and learning in 2013. I think it was 2012, 2013. Learning without frontiers was the conference. He was giving his talk and he said that the idea that Silicon Valley is defining how humans will interact in the future is the most perverse thing that's ever happened in the history of society. And yeah, I think that's. I think there's some truth there. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, some of these things are. 

05:43
Speaker 1
I mean, they're driven to keep you engaged, and they're driven to keep you engaged through a variety of different means, but they produce Those little dopamine hits that really keep you going over and over again and wanting more. And I mean, I would suggest that the quality of the experience perhaps isn't all that fundamentally great. Right. I mean, it's something that we are continually addicted to. I've certainly noticed, you know, I see my usage patterns. I've changed the way that I do some things, you know, I don't have. I think my biggest social media now is LinkedIn where I tend to post more business and study research related things. 

06:26
Speaker 1
I think the second to that is probably Twitter or X as it is now, but I use a lot less of that because I find myself battling more with trying to just see what I want to see versus what the algorithm wants me to see. And I think that's part of it. So I think that those changes are, I think that those indictments are important and those court cases are important and I'm hopeful that maybe the result of that will start to change the way that we define and interact with some of these things. Back in 2013, I think it was. This is on YouTube somewhere I did a, an hour long talk about screen usage and this was not long after the iPhone was around. And of course I think as you know, we're in very much the same space here. 

07:25
Speaker 1
When you look at edtech materials across the board from not just within schools, but in the professional environments as well. The new and shiny is always something that comes in. So about that time, mobile learning was the new shiny thing. So everybody had their iPhones. And so the talk that I gave centered around the fact that this is a really powerful environment. We have these little boxes that are the gateways to all human knowledge at this point. Right. Which I think is close to a fair statement. But the experience of that I think is something that needs to be very well thought out. 

08:04
Speaker 1
And I think at the time, and I still used, one of the things that had just come out, if I'm not mistaken, was the Pokemon Go game, which I found fascinating because I thought that was a really interesting use and blending of experience and screen. Right. Because you're being active, you're out chasing things, hopefully not running into traffic, which was my only criticism, right? 

08:31
Speaker 2
Absolutely. 

08:32
Speaker 1
And you know, this is my only criticism. Like this could be this, you know, this could become an issue. But this, the screen isn't, is kind of merely one element of the rest of the world. And I thought that was a pretty unique way to handle that and to do that. And it really followed along with some of the other things that I was seeing. At the same time, I think it was BMW famously had a pretty impressive video where they were showing somebody wearing glasses, which at the time Google Glass was the thing. And now, you know, we've got meta glasses. I think a number of different competitors there. 

09:13
Speaker 1
But you know, the idea was the technician is looking at the car and physically working with the mechanics of the car to solve the problem that, you know, the actual engine and such, but is being guided by overlays. And this was of course a big thing that was also occurring in the DoD space as well. So I think that there's a tremendous amount of use. It's just that what is being put into the system directly feeds what is coming out of the system. And so those court cases, in my humble little mind suggest that what's being put into the system is not as beneficial as what's being taken out or isn't producing the benefit that's being taken out, I should say. 

09:56
Speaker 2
Yeah, couple notes on that. Thinking about the algorithm and Facebook used to be such a big place for me because it was actual social media. Could, could build relationships, network, you know, that kind of thing. And these days if I open it up, it might be like 1 out of 12 people that I actually know, right. It's like it's all framed so that it feels familiar, but it's all just stuff trying to get me sucked in, clicking in, et cetera. I try to delete that or hide it as much as possible, but it's me fighting the algori. 

10:32
Speaker 1
I mean, it's arguably, it's also rage, right? I mean, that's what keeps you involved, right? Because you opinions that are the opposite of yours and, but they're presented in such a way that gets you going. So then you want, you start diving deeper and further. And so then I mean, I guess the question is how's that work for kids, you know? Yeah, exactly. When kids get sucked into these things. And so because the algorithm, I want to think that the algorithm is perhaps modified or tweaked for kids, but it may not be either. Right. I know that when my, you know, there are four children in this house ranging from ages of 8 to 17 and you know, the 8 year old, you know, screens are a bit inevitable, right? I mean, we use them at school. 

11:26
Speaker 1
That's, you know, all the schools have iPads or Chromebooks. So, you know, the kids wants to use them and they get involved with them. But, you know, sometimes I, I find I try to keep a close eye on what the kids are watching. And sometimes it's, you know, the question is, how did you get here? You know, what was in your feed? Or what were you looking at? What were you doing that got you to this video or this whatever? And, you know, then we have to kind of curtail that and turn that off. 

12:00
Speaker 2
You know, the other thing I'm seeing a lot of on X these days, too. Justin Bader, he's over at the principal Center. I really appreciate his voice. I see Jonathan, I think he pronounced his last name hate from the anxious generation. 

12:16
Speaker 1
You know, he. 

12:17
Speaker 2
I see him all the time posting. And then I had somebody on the show named Emily Cherkin. I think she calls herself a screen term consultant maybe. But I see a lot of people posting like, ed tech, widely adopted, not a lot of evidence, producing great outcomes. You know, so there's, I think there's like a growing group of educators just really thinking about, yeah, what is this doing to kids? What are the outputs? What are the outcomes? Is it working for us? Why are we so integrated with it? And it's weird for me to say because, you know, I'm the do school different guy. How do we reimagine things? I'm very, you know, bullish on technology and, but also thinking about it objectively as well, you know, like the place and that kind of thing. 

13:03
Speaker 1
Well, but I think the important part here is there's you hit on something that I think really requires pulling the thread a little bit, you know, so your point about technology and being that kind of, hey, we can use this for something better is I think, a very valid point. You know, one of the things that. One of the challenges, and I see there were two very big challenges that I would suggest here. One is that, you know, I remember when we first started delving into the mobile learning world. You know, the mobile learning world was basically, okay, how are we going to recreate what's on this big screen for this little screen? And that's the wrong way to do it. That's not really how it should be approached. I think that was immediately compounded. 

13:50
Speaker 1
Not immediately, but not too long after, in the grand timescale of things by Covid. Because Covid put us in that position where went from having some online learning in schools to having to have complete online learning in schools. And the problem is that transition, which If I were building a course that was not online to become online, that transition would take, I don't know, geez, months, you know, maybe even a year depending on what the course was. Right. But here were put in a position where we had to make that transition in three weeks, four weeks. And that is an impossible situation. And you know, I think for better, for worse, a lot of that just has carried through. So I think there are a number of different possibilities of how to use this tech and how to make it work. 

14:56
Speaker 1
I think the challenge is finding the right thing to make it work. Right. I, I don't, I, I, I certainly hope that my, what I'm saying is not coming across as all edtech is bad. I don't believe all edtech is bad. I believe that we have tools and we have important pieces that really can make a difference in fundamentally how people work with these materials. Right. Being able to understand something and try something via simulation and then put that into work in the physical manner is a hugely important piece. That's, you know, fundamentally that's somewhat how robots are programmed. 

15:35
Speaker 2
Right. 

15:35
Speaker 1
We start in the simulation world and we've got the models and the physics and we get the robots to do the things and then once we have that, we get that to the actual physical robot and get the physical robots to do the thing that we just simulated. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity there. It's just a matter of really coming across the particular implementations that make the most sense. Right. And I don't believe those implementations are the implementations that have users staring at a screen for the majority of the time. 

16:08
Speaker 2
Plugged into the Matrix? 

16:12
Speaker 1
Yes, plugged into the Matrix. I just watched that the other night. So it's an interesting watch. If you haven't watched it in a while, consider when you consider the place of AI right now and things that are happening. Also, I think it's worth pointing out because the Matrix is something that I've talked about in the past. Right, Okay. I don't know that we talked about it the last time we talked, but there's the whole scene and this was the learning scene. There are two points in that movie that are think folks, when they look at learning and the future of learning, reverence, you know, but the one that I always enjoyed was the scene they're trying to rescue Morpheus who's been abducted by the agents and is being, you know, held in this thing. 

16:58
Speaker 1
And they get up to the rooftop and there's a helicopter and you know, Neo's Character's like, well, what are we gonna do? And he's there with Trinity, who says, no problem, I got this. And, you know, makes the phone call and says, I need to learn how to fly a Bell 212 helicopter. So just like that, she's like, okay, let's go. They get in the helicopter and they take off and they fly. Okay, amazing. Great idea. Here's the problem. Trinity does not learn how to fly a helicopter. She learns how to simulate a helicopter. She has no idea how to fly a helicopter once she's unplugged from that experience. So in that realm, what we're doing is looking at the simulation and saying, well, this is the future of learning. But it's not. 

17:39
Speaker 1
Because really it's just the future of simulation, not the future of actual practice. At least that's how I've always seen it and that's how I've always read that scene. So whenever I heard or we talk about the Matrix, I think that's always a pretty prescient example of something that perhaps is interpreted one way. But the reality is, it's not how it's working. 

17:59
Speaker 2
Yeah, Reality is. Reality is a whole nother ball game. You know, AI is really funny. I'm working with it every day, all day. And if you're not careful, it's like the confirmation bias or the fact that it thinks your ideas are so good and you feel like you have these foolproof plans. Right. And then you bring it to the world, you take it out of the simulation. 

18:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. 

18:20
Speaker 2
And you bring it to the real world and it falls flat on its face. Right. But you were so confident that it was going to work. And it's interesting, like whatever the implications of that'll because, you know, if you stop, if you give over all your decision making ability, critical thinking, this kind of stuff to the machine and just be like, oh, yeah, that's. That's the route to go. Right, right. And then it doesn't work out. 

18:46
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I mean, look, AI is an amazing tool. It really is. It's a phenomenal tool. And I think there's a lot of places that we can go with it. And there's a lot of places that we can talk about. There are certainly a lot of ethical implications. I find myself, you know, really studying that and researching that a lot more. But it's a tool at the end of the day, and I think it's important to have that tool in the classroom. I really do. You know, we have this. I think when we really look at the scope of how things are going in the world. 

19:17
Speaker 1
You know, we've got the view that we have in the US And I mean, just for the purposes of our conversation, the view we've got in the US and we've got the view that's coming out of China. Right. And it's interesting to watch the different viewpoints because, you know, in the. China. In China, you know, AI implementation, robotics implementation is just a thing. It is an integrated thing within the culture. It does this. This is how it works. It is a tool. There are in Shenzhen, China right now, you know, their robots are being deployed on the streets for different things. They've got drones that do traffic. They've got, you know, the typical things you would think robots would do. 

19:57
Speaker 1
And what's really interesting is to look at the messaging behind that, because if you look at some of the papers that come out of Asia and some of the stories it is, you know, hey, traffic robot implemented in Shenzhen. This is what it's doing. And then if you look at the Western implementation of that, it is dark robotic overlords monitoring your driving. 

20:19
Speaker 2
And taking your jobs. 

20:20
Speaker 1
Right, and taking your jobs. Yeah. 

20:22
Speaker 2
Yes. 

20:23
Speaker 1
And I think we're at a really interesting point right now with AI and it's difficult and troubling. It's a tool. It is certainly going to affect the job market for sure. I, I have very close friends who are being impacted by AI and their writers, you know, and that's troubling. But I also think that the job opportunities that come out of this kind of will eventually equate. It's a rebalancing, like it's always been a rebalancing. Right. I mean, when the loom came out, the automated loom came out in the 1800s, you know, that was an issue, but that rebalanced. It's a matter of getting there. And I think understanding these tools and getting them into the educational system is going to be a huge critical part of that and presenting them not in the dark overlord's way. 

21:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, although I, I do have a tendency to say please and thank you to my AI agents all the time because, you know, I want them to remember that. Just, that's a whole different. I have a whole different philosophy and idea behind that. But, but, you know, in terms of how we're doing this education, I think it's important. I just took my PhD qualifiers at the university. I'm studying, and this was the first year that they changed them because in past years they were having issues with students using AI to write their papers and do things. I don't necessarily disagree with those changes. I think it's important that if you are going for a PhD program or if you were learning to write that you actually learn how to write. AI is a great tool for that. 

21:58
Speaker 1
But you know, if we to your point, if we use this critical thinking skills, where do we end up? I think that's part of what makes us human and what makes us all function. 

22:11
Speaker 2
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23:06
Speaker 2
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24:24
Speaker 2
Download the full K12 lens report at frontlineducation.com leaders to see the data and the practices behind stronger culture and retention. You can get that [email protected] leaders. Teachers love the support that IXL provides in the classroom, and Ruckus makers love it all as well because IXL also gives school leaders meaningful insights on every level. Put Your finger on the pulse of student performance with IXL and its dashboard to drill down to see progress and growth for individual students. You can even customize reports to hone in on the information that matters most to you. IXL helps Ruckus makers make data informed decisions that will benefit their students. Growth goals. Get started [email protected] leaders. That's ixl.com leaders. Here's something I tell all principals I work with. There's two sides to every coin. The story you've been telling yourself about your campus. Our parents don't engage, our teachers. 

25:44
Speaker 2
They just won't change. This is just how it is here. That's not necessarily reality. It's just one side of the coin that's a story you decided to be true. But there's another side to that story and to that coin that is equally valid. One that probably positions everything you're saying in a much more generous light. The language and the story you're telling yourself, it really matters. It's the same situation, but depending on the lens and the perspective you take, you are a completely different leader. That's one move that Digital Danny is built for to make with you. He's not going to agree with your comfortable story. He's going to push on you right in the way that I would with the same questions drawn from 10 plus years of experience coaching school leaders just like you. That reframes the entire game. 

26:43
Speaker 2
It can be a game changer for you. Get started with Digital Danny and reframe the story you've been telling [email protected] Ruckus get started at myprincipalcoach.com Rusk Ruckus. There's a new guy in my network. I'm enjoying speaking to him too. Corey Kasic. He, he's at a company called Orchard Careers and so he's thinking deeply about how to prepare kids for the future and knowing that counselors are overloaded and etc. Etc. And, and not to put kids sort of on a linear path like. Or you take some kind of assessment that means you're a doctor, you're an engineer. Right. Like. Right. Really, really. Having something that's more robust and personalized and giving you a lot of different ways to explore. Right? 

27:38
Speaker 1
Yeah. 

27:38
Speaker 2
So anyways, he's out there and is powered by AI and he's talking to districts. And the constraint that he's facing is that some folks want to adopt it. But by folks, I mean, you know, systems. Yeah, but they're stopped, they're slowed down, because they don't even have an AI policy yet. 

27:56
Speaker 1
Like, it doesn't, right? 

27:57
Speaker 2
Like in 20, like in 2026, not even a draft of a policy of how to make decisions around AI, which I find that to be amazing. 

28:06
Speaker 1
I don't necessarily know that. I do find that to be amazing. I, There should be, at this point, you're right, there should be some considerations, but this is moving so fast. How do we keep up with it? You know, and, yeah, those are some of the questions, you know, I, I see, you know, the discussions that Richard Coletta from ISTE has, because they focus a lot on AI, and you know, what that looks like in school, because that's, I mean, you know, I've sat in the rooms. That's the hottest topic, right? 90% Of the people want to talk about AI and what that means in their classroom. And, and I think it's important. I also believe that it's a challenge because there are two different aspects to this, right. 

28:53
Speaker 1
The first aspect is, okay, how do we deal with AI when kids are able to just say, I need a paper on this, and boom, it's done. The second is how do we can't ignore this stuff. I mean, unless somebody comes and just pulls the giant plug, which is very unlikely to happen because that has to be a global thing, we can't ignore it. So how do we teach it and how do we build those things that really allow for that education to be useful in the sense of, hey, these are tools and this is what we can and can't do with them, you know, and I mean, you know, to your point, you know, I, I find it fascinating. I, I use AI quite a bit, particularly for coding now. 

29:42
Speaker 1
I don't necessarily code too much anymore as much as I used to, because I've got this machine that can do it. And yes, the machine can't quite do it perhaps as well as I could in some cases. I think that's getting much better now. I know that there are certainly companies that are now not hiring junior programmers because they can get AI to do it and then have their senior programmers review it. So then the question becomes, well, then how do we get more senior programmers? You know, I, I tend to think that, again, if you look at it like a tool, that's kind of your path, right? You're going to know that you're going to want to learn how the code is structured. You're going to want to learn the semantics. 

30:26
Speaker 1
I tend to refer to this as the fact that code is becoming philosophy rather than engineering at this point. Explain how much you know that. Well, I think, you know, the base of this message is that we now have these tools that do these things, right. But the tools only do as good of a job based upon what we give that machine that those tools to do the job. So if I say, you know, build me a website that scrapes this data and shows me all the relationships, right, that's exactly what it's going to do. So what I need to do as the person that's using this tool is to say, okay, how do I define what data I need, how I want it to be displayed, perhaps what tool sets I want to use because I've got a target platform for it. 

31:17
Speaker 1
How do I give that information, those thought processes to the system to do the work that I needed to be done? And as a junior level program, that kind of thinking process I think is going to be more and more critically important. So we start to, you know, we start to look at how we are structuring these things versus how we are building these things. Right. So that kind of philosophical viewpoint as to what we're doing with this code or what we're describing makes a lot of difference versus saying I need this if then loop to do this. 

31:55
Speaker 2
Right, Right. Right. Want to share a resource? Tell a short story? Resources. There's a book called A Beautiful Constraint. I don't know if you've ever come across that, but based on what you're sharing there, I think that might be a good read for anybody, you know, enjoying this show and thinking about how to get better outputs. I think constraints are maybe a piece of that puzzle. So the short story, I don't know if you've seen any of the videos. Totally doesn't bother me if you have not. Digital Danny, right. He's, he's alive and well and he could support school leaders. And the first version of him was a candidly, a very average tool. Right. And that's because in terms of setting him up, I gave him very few constraints. He had access to everything that I've created over a decade right now. 

32:44
Speaker 2
Interestingly, people still found value in that. And there was one individual who had 910 conversations from August to December, five months. Right. Which is interesting. So I had a call with him, found out, you know, what are you using them for? Where does he get stuck? Where's the value, et cetera. And the version 2 got 100x better by giving it constraints, 4 jobs to be done. Focus on those, don't make up stuff outside of those jobs and keep your focus there. And a whole lot more in terms of instructions of how to interact and work and yeah, provide feedback, you know, to school leaders that might use it. And version one, from August to December, not a lot of messages to me from people using him. Version two, once I let people know he's upgraded, give it another try. 

33:36
Speaker 2
Lots of messages coming in, oh, I can't believe how good it works, etc. 

33:40
Speaker 1
Etc. 

33:41
Speaker 2
But I think it's because, you know, like you said, the thoughtfulness of, okay, where's the data coming from? What kind of answers are you going to provide? It was, I put so much more effort into version 2 as I should, right over version 1, but the output, I don't know, let's say I put 10 times more effort into version 2, the output is exponentially better. Right? 

34:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. 

34:08
Speaker 2
So it's not like a direct correlation. I don't, hopefully that makes sense to. 

34:13
Speaker 1
So you watch that? No, I think it does. And I think that's really the, the kind of driving point, you know, that's where we're going here, where we're moving from this narrative where we, you know, had to spend a lot of time focusing on the code itself to now changing to where, you know, we're allowed or we're putting ourselves in a position where we have to focus more on the design and the philosophy of how these things work. 

34:41
Speaker 2
Right. 

34:42
Speaker 1
It's not just, I'm going to build a calculator, it is, I'm going to build a specific calculator and I want it to look like this and act like this and function like this and how do we write those instructions so that when we give them to the tool does the thing. 

34:58
Speaker 2
Yeah. 

34:59
Speaker 1
And you know, the calculator is a simple thought, right? Because think about the complex systems that exist, you know, And I mean, look, the code is philosophy idea. I mean, I based that on, you know, a couple years ago and I think it's still somewhat prevalent. You know, in the blockchain world you had distributed autonomous organizations which were basically these self governing companies that existed on blockchain and there and even within some of the blockchain and crypto components that made them function. The idea was code is law. Right. So the law work is in the code. So I think it's a bit of a riff on that, given what we're able to do in terms of building these solutions. And it's fast and it's impressive. 

35:51
Speaker 1
And I think those are the things that we really want to try to harness when we're talking about AI and education. Because it gives you the ability to say, look, you've got a tool that can do these amazing things, you've got a tool that can write these papers, but you really need to think about what it is that you want it to be. You need to think about how you want to implement it. And that's not an endorsement for AI writing your papers. That is saying that in the same way that if you are not using AI to write papers, you want to put the thought into the paper, you want to do that. If you're trying to use AI, you. 

36:27
Speaker 2
Got an assignment or a project for students. And if you just like, you know, summarize the War of 1812 versus, you know, something that's going to be a lot more distinct and robust or whatever, you're going to get different outputs from your human students. 

36:40
Speaker 1
Yeah. 

36:41
Speaker 2
So last personal example. And then I want you to pretend you're a principal, but, you know, to give people some hope, optimism, like, yeah, disruptions are coming. Replaced by Claude is coming. As you were telling me in the pre. Pre chat before we hit record, interestingly, as I talk about what I'm building for school leaders, there's a lot of folks in just in business that have contacted me for consulting, whatever. Right. Just because they find it. And how might I integrate it over here in this space, which I find fascinating and I think on, well, not somewhat on accident, but because I'm such a learner. Right. This is now a skill set. Right. That I could support others with. And so now with your principal, I want you to pretend you're a principal running a campus, knowing that you can. 

37:33
Speaker 2
I mean, the canvas is blank, it's wide open, which is scary, but also full of possibility. But how might you, like, how might you think about stuff you might build for yourself as a school leader, for your campus, for your parents, your students? It's a pretty big question, but it's a huge question. 

37:53
Speaker 1
And I mean, first of all, yeah, I mean, just the mere thought of being a principal on a school campus is highly overwhelming. You know, the amount of respect I have for the things that they do and what they have to deal with. Because the reality is that to your question, it would be great to be able to do that, but I know that even principals have somebody that they have to respond to. And school boards and things like that. So I guess what would I do to make all of these things work? What kind of design would I have here? Boy, that is a big question. 

38:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, maybe it's really shame on me, Danny, for asking that type of thing. 

38:34
Speaker 1
I mean, I think it's a reasonable question and I think it's a thoughtful one. I mean, that's a great thought exercise. Right? So, and anybody that's listening to this, you know, maybe take, maybe pause, you know, what would you do? Write that down. What, what would you do? And, and the principals that may be watching this are probably all like, man, I wish it were that easy and we could just make all this stuff work. But there's other factors that we have to consider. 

38:59
Speaker 2
Here's another provocation though, like I had my, one of my mentors, Christopher Lockhead, said, you know, pretend, just kill your company right now. Build something new. Where AI was your co founder, what would you build? Right. So I think another really interesting thought experiment would just be like, say you're hired today's day one and you're stepping on the campus. 

39:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. 

39:21
Speaker 2
How would you co principle with AI? You know, maybe that's another way to think about it. 

39:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's, that's in some ways a bit of an easier question. You know, I mean, AI is the thing about AI that makes it interesting and powerful is that it's drawing upon all of this knowledge that we've really built into it, right? So when you think about how these models are built and what they do, they're built in and integrated into a system in such a manner that things work. Right. And they work based upon past experience because that's the data set that comes in. 

39:56
Speaker 1
So what's cool about AI in that particular realm is that if I say, hey, I need you to build me a curriculum on the history of, I don't know, World War II or the history of AI or cybernetics or anything to that extent, I'm going to get a really interesting curriculum and it's probably going to be, although I would definitely want to check the references, it's probably going to be pretty solid and pretty straightforward. So what that leaves me to do is focus on the human element. Right. Which AI cannot do. AI may claim that it has emotions and all these things it does not, that we know of. I can talk about AI and consciousness ad nauseam for a long period of time, but it's still not, it doesn't have the experiences that we have. 

40:48
Speaker 1
So if I'm working with an AI, and that's my co principal, I'm going to let that AI focus on exactly the materials and perhaps the structure, but I'm going to focus on the human elements of that. How do we make this work for people so that people get to be people and interact and grow up and be social and do all the things that I think make us explicitly human? And that would be my simple answer for that. And I mean, you had mentioned our kind of pre roll conversation and you know, one of the things I keep thinking about and I've seen this is getting a little bit more traction as well, is the question, do people say please and thank you to their AIs when they use them? 

41:33
Speaker 2
Right. 

41:34
Speaker 1
And when I've been thinking about that, you know, I know Sam Altman says that it costs tens of millions of dollars a year because people are doing that. And I do, to his credit, I do believe he said, but it's worth it. And I tend to agree with that. AI can do these great things, but we still need to learn to be human. And I think the act of saying please and thank you is that human nature that we already have, that we want to push forward and continue to see within ourselves. And I think that back to the screens and those notions and again, the notion of social media in its way kind of destroyed the social contract that we've had for ever. Because social media doesn't mean that I'm talking to you, it means that I'm talking to a glass screen. 

42:24
Speaker 1
And it's a lot easier for me to say things that I probably shouldn't say to a glass screen than it is if I'm looking you in the eye. Because there's that human aspect. What my concern is, has that all disappeared? Because now what's the difference, right? So if I'm the co principal, I'm focusing on the human elements and how to make these things functional and how to make sure that the critical thinking is there. You know, we need that. We especially need that now where we're going to need a lot of scientists in the next generation. So if you lose your critical thinking, that becomes a dangerous situation. 

43:02
Speaker 2
Well, I really enjoyed our second conversation here, Chris, of everything we've discussed. There was a lot in this episode. What do you think is the one thing you want a ruckus maker to remember? 

43:11
Speaker 1
You know, going back to what our original conversation was and I think what a good part of what we had to talk about in this chat was, you know, the screen is an element of this there, but the experience extends beyond the screen. So when you're looking at or designing these platforms, you know, ensure that it is a tool and not the tool. 

43:34
Speaker 2
Right. 

43:34
Speaker 1
Ensure, you know, try to ensure that those things that the, you know, the kids have access to extend beyond what they're staring at. I mean, I think that's a, that's a big part of this. Technology is hugely important. But we don't want everything to be super technological. I mean, remember that we're all humans too. 

43:54
Speaker 2
That's right. 

43:54
Speaker 1
Yeah. 

43:55
Speaker 2
Awesome. Thanks again for being on the show. 

43:58
Speaker 1
My pleasure. Thank you for having me again. 

44:03
Speaker 2
Hey, Ruckus makers, thanks again for pressing play. I hope you enjoyed the show as much as I enjoyed creating it for you. And before you go, if today's episode shifted something in you so that you want to do school different, maybe you have a new idea about how to reimagine education on your campus. Then check out my principal Coach. It's your AI powered leadership mentor. It's trained on 10 years of mastermind and private coaching experience that I've had. It's like having a world class Ruckus Maker mentor in your pocket 24. 7. You can start your free 7 day trial at myprincipalcoach. Com. 

  Transcribed by https://fireflies.ai/