Thanks for hitting play. If you love exploring how to do school differently so you can make a legendary impact on your campus, then you're in the right place. I'm Danny Bauer, and this is the better leaders, Better Schools podcast, the original Ruckus Maker podcast for visionary leaders, innovators, and rebels in education. Thanks to Ruckus makers just like you, this show ranks in the top 0.5% of over 3 million worldwide podcasts. In today's conversation, I spoke with Lindsay Cravens. She's currently transitioning from being the high school principal at Stockton, Kansas, to a new position of high school principal at Republic county. This fall will be her final semester working towards her eds and district administration from Fort Hays State University. And Lindsay was somebody who picked up a copy of build leadership momentum, and it really worked for her. 

She enjoyed the content, put into practice the framework, and landed the principal job with calm and confidence. So we're here to hear her story about how it helped. Once again, thanks for listening, and we'll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsors. Hey Ruckus Maker, I'll make this quick. If you're listening to this message right now, you're missing out. When you subscribe to the Ruckus Maker newsletter on Substack, you get access to micro books focused on how to do school different tools and other resources that will help you make a ruckus and do school different stories and case studies of the worlds most legendary ruckus makers of all time. Access to my calendar to schedule coaching sessions and you'll also get bonus podcast content that won't be released on the main podcast feed and podcast episodes without any advertisements. 

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04:23
Danny
That's because the food is real and it's made from scratch and locally sourced. Learn more about Quest food management [email protected]. Or follow Quest food on social media. That's questfms.com dot. All right. And Lindsay, welcome to the show. 

04:46
Lindsay
Hi, Danny. Thanks for having me. 

04:48
This is super exciting to have this conversation. I feel like Stacey, right, she connected us and I don't know the whole backstory so you could fill in the blanks, but all I know, I believe Stacy got you a copy to Build Leadership Momentum and then was like singing your praises and was excited about some new position that you have. And I guess you had some nice results working through the book and that kind of thing. And so that's my setup. But fill in any blanks that you want to share there. 

05:22
Lindsay
Stacey Green is elementary principal in the same district that I've been in for the past three years. And I've worked under her as well as a school counselor in the past. And so not only is she a mentor, but she's a friend as well. And she's been an administrator for a long time and well thought of by a lot of people. She's just an overall wonderful leader. And so when you need guidance ontaking a risk and going out and trying something new like I just did, she's great to lean on. So when she knew I was applying for a job in another district, she said, read this, you're going to love this. So I did. And I used a lot of those strategies in the book in my interview process, so. And she was a reference for me, too, but it just gave me a lot of good talking points and planning points to go from not only in the interview, but to feel more prepared. And then I'm going to use some of those pieces going into the next school year as well. So now I will be the high school principal in Belleville, but they call it Republic county schools, so. 

06:39
Danny
And if I remember correctly, this is your second principalship, is that right? 

06:45
Lindsay
That is correct. I've been in Stockton where the state is for the past three years as high school principal. And actually my first year was kind of a weird cutoff. It was eight grades, eight through twelve. And then the past couple of years we've been nine through twelve. So that's been nice. 

07:03
Danny
Great. And let's just give Stacey a shout out, you know we love you. You are the best. And congrats on the new grandkids. I saw pictures she shared, too, so that's super exciting to have that addition to the family. We'll get into how the book helped and maybe how you prepared for the interview and that kind of thing. But I'd like to take a look backwards first. And since you've already been a principal and you've applied to and obviously successfully got the position and that kind of thing. But I'm just curious, like and there's no right or wrong.. I'm just curious, like when you interviewed for that last position and in terms of how you prepared for the start of the year, what was that like pre reading the book? 

07:50
Lindsay
Build leadership momentum before reading the book? It's been a while since I've done an interview, but, man, once you have become an administrator, which I have been for the past three years, it's kind of a double edged sword. Like A lot more than when you started as an administrator. It's like, start the teacher. You think you're prepared from school and things like that, but you're not and not until you navigate through it and get some experience under you. I still feel very new at the job. I think you're always learning, no matter if you're a teacher or an administrator. But I felt a little more prepared this time. Having some experience as a high school principal, just, there was so much that you just didn't know. But when you first started as one three years ago, but then having read the book, it just, I really liked how it made me feel a little bit calmer because it talked about how the summer, how you feel rested a little bit more and you just feel a little more easy. He's like, you should go into the school year feeling that way. And we've all started school. If you're an educator, you know exactly what I mean. It's, like, crazy that time of year. You know, everything lined up, all to get all your ducks in a row, and you never quite feel prepared. Having some of those pieces put in place beforehand and kind of that guide, you still need your people, too like you said, there's no right or wrong to this, but just having everything kind of laid out a little bit more ahead of time and just breathe and enjoy it, that's what I like learning in that book. Like, you're supposed to enjoy this. Like, the kids are excited. You should feel that way, too.
09:51
Danny
Can you tell me why they matter? Because I could come up with some stories and fill in the planks, but you're you. I'm not you. And so you said that the sense of calm. And that you should also be able to experience that as the year begins, even though there's a lot going on.  But why does that matter? 

10:11
Lindsay
As an administrator, your teachers need you to be that calm, too, and let them know that we're all in this together. And if we make a mistake or something doesn't go right, we'll figure it out, and we'll move along. And the kids can sense it, too. I think it all flows together, and it's part of that culture of the building. If you're enjoying your time getting started with school, the teachers can, too, and the kids can, too. So it all just kind of flows together. I don't know how to say that. It's hard to put into words, but just the feel of the building.  I think just being organized and working together as a team and, again, just supporting each other makes everything feel a little bit better. 

11:04
Danny
That's a good thing, to have everybody on the same page and feeling in a positive place at the beginning of the year. 

11:12
Danny
Justit's called build leadership momentum. It's about building that leadership momentum.  And so that's part of the promise of the book. Were you looking for anything to prepare you for the new position, or was it just Stacy knowing, oh, Lindsay's doing this, so I'm gonna. Here it is. Go,  Read that. I'm just curious. 

11:35
Lindsay
Yes, I was looking for some people, there's a. There's a couple pages where I follow some principles. There's people that I trust from elevated leadership. And that's your KSB here in Kansas. That Ito kind of gave me some ins and outs of some different districts around that they felt like I'd be a good fit. But just jumping into the interview process, it's. That part's hard for me. Like, I want to get out there and teach and lead and be with the kids and the teachers, but just going through that filtration process and happen to just make sure that you're answering the questions right. That part is hard for me and Stacey. 

12:18
Danny
Why is it? Tell me more. Tell me more. 

12:21
Lindsay
I don't know. I would like to say that I have all the right answers, but I don't always. And it's. I hope that they can understand the people on the other side of those questions and can figure out that I am passionate about my job and the kids. And then I want us to do well and be a team together, but you never know quite what they're looking for. And so having your book and mentors and people that have gone through it, kind of having all that on in your backpack when you go in is just good, too, and it helps you relieve some of that stress a little bit just to help you feel more prepared. Like I said, like Doctor Bader, I follow him. He has points. And Simons. He has some good points. And then reading your book, it's just those were the ways I could prepare. 

13:20
Danny
Jeff, I'll take it. You know, if you're talking about Justin and Simon and me in the same breath, like, that's. That's a huge honor.  I mean, it sounds like gave you a framework and helped you feel a little more prepared, that you could communicate in a way, too, that not only gave you confidence, but the interview panel confidence that you were the right person for the role. Is that correct? 

13:42
Lindsay
I believe so, yes. Thank you. 

13:44
Danny
Did you have any fears or reservations? Right. Because you read it, and I say, like, here's the framework, right? Do this and you'll be successful. And did you have any fears or reservations? I don't know about that. 

13:57
Lindsay
I don't know right off the top of my head. But what makes me feel better is, like, when I read the book, I read some other people's personal experiences and kind of some situations that principals or superintendents have gone through, and I'm like, oh, good. I've gone through that, too. Or something similar. Then you kind of get asked that question, like, how are you going to, how would you handle that going forward? Well then it gives you a few kinds of points to think about and lead you in the right direction. But I, there's never just that one solid answer. That's one thing in administration I've found. It's not black and white. You have to know your people, your kid, the situation, and their background. You have to think about the consequences going forward of your decision or your action that you're going to take. At the end of the day, when you go home, you want to make sure what's best for the kids and the environment and the learning environment, and it's something that you can hold peacefully as you move on. Sometimes you get that and sometimes you don't. I wish every sign that you went home, you felt like you did it just right. But there's times, and then you gotta come back and say, you know what? I made a mistake. Let's try it again. Let's. But I have found that working with, like, my teachers and admitting that I make a mistake, man, they can appreciate that, too. That way they feel like they're not the only ones because they're not like when I was getting ready to leave Stocktonwe had a big get together with our teachers, and I told them all, I'm like, you guys were my people that I have learned with from day one on how to do this and not that I know how to do it still, but I feel like they were very trusting and they helped me in some areas because some of them have been teaching longer than I've been an adult. 

16:05
Danny
Lots of wisdom and experience. 

16:08
Lindsay
They all come from different backgrounds.  I have one teacher that has his PhD, and he's a chemist and he's taught medical students. I can, and he's been, he's a retired lieutenant colonel from the army. So there's a lot of great things that I've picked up from him. I'm going back to school. I have a semester left till I get my eds and district administration. And he's been through those processes, so he was great to learn from, too. So just knowing your people and having those, having that trust in each other, it just carries you so far, and it just helps so much every day to enjoy your job and then be your best for the kids. I mean, rambling on, but that's how I feel. 

17:00
Danny
No, you're making a lot of great points and I think you're communicating the importance of your people and the value that they bring. Right. And you're acknowledging that inherent value that your staff has. And that's really wonderful in terms of the back to the book, building leadership momentum. Do you remember in terms of maybe some of the more helpful lessons or takeaways that you got from the book? 

17:27
Lindsay
Again, just being prepared and establishing, making sure that your beliefs and your missions and your goals all align together and everybody's kind of on the same page without when you get started working together in pieces throughout the summer to kind of build that team, celebrating your staff along the way, when they hit a milestone or just have a really great lesson and being in there with the kids and while they're learning and learning alongside them and stepping in and you, I think one thing I came out of this, too, is don't forget what it's like being in the classroom. Be the teacher sometimes. All those things help you not only build those relationships, but helps you navigate and know your kids. And when you are faced with some decision making, you just know them better and what they're seeing every single day, so. 

18:35
Danny
Did anything surprise you about the content that was in there? 

18:40
Lindsay
Surprise me? I don't think so. I don't think I was surprised. 

18:46
Danny
Obviously I love that you took action. There's a saying I have, which is that our ideas are great, but not the greatest. The only thing better than an idea is taking action, which you did, and that's why you're on the show and you got the job, which is like, again, congrats, Lindsay. That's fantastic. Do you remember sort of the first big win that you got implementing the framework? I don't know if it was just feeling the confidence going to the interview, getting the job, or a moment during the interview where people might have been really impressed. 

19:17
Lindsay
So what I did was I kind of took that actual quote that you said. I'm glad you said that because I did use that in my interview. I cited you, but I had to have something like a PowerPoint or a slideshow for an interview. And I mixed in some of those pieces, but it helped me sit down and kind of that framework of how to put that together. So, yeah, that was one thing that I did use was ideas are great, but they're even better when you have action behind them. 

19:49
Danny
That's right. 

19:50
Lindsay
Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. 

19:53
Danny
And I guess my last question regarding the book, and then I'd love to just hear about what you're excited about with the school. You've got the job, you're confident with that. It was a win, which is great. What advice would you have for the ruckus maker who's listening to our conversation, and they're applying to positions and trying to figure it out and landmatch with the campus. But what advice would you have for them? 

20:17
Lindsay
I would tell them, get a hold of these books reading column chaos as well. And that's good to get a hold of these books, get some of these quotes, and see how they can, how you can take them and be successful with them and how you can intertwine them in your philosophy. But it just helps to have that organization, I felt, and just give you that understanding that every one of us in administration or in education, pretty much in any realm of it, that we're all going through some similar things. Whether we're in a large school or a small rural school, it still hits the same. And just sitting down when you're faced with those questions and having some of those points ready are a huge help. Just like you said, taking action, not just having those ideas are good. 

21:15
Danny
Yeah, I forgot you picked up and the chaos. So just for the listener, if you have access to Amazon, I bundled together three of these books, build leadership momentum, which is on your entry plan, the remarkable vision formula, which is on your three year vision, and then calm and the chaos, which is a book I wrote with Glenn Robbins and Ariel Curry. And that one's leveraging ancient stoic wisdom. Right. To have successful school leadership. We won't dive deeply into that book, but I forgot you were reading it, too. Is there anything that has been an epiphany or, like, wow, I needed to read that today from the calling the chaos book. 

21:55
Lindsay
I mean, being completely honest, you know that some days are very hard in a leadership position. 

22:01
Danny
Definitely. 

22:01
Lindsay
And it's eating your sound rabbit hole once in a while of being negative on yourself or the day or a situation. But you realize when you read some of the pieces in that book, you know what? It's just take 24 hours, take time to process it, do, at the end of the day, do what's best for the kids, and you rely on those people that will talk positive with you and to talk you through things and make sure that you're making the best decision when you sit down to relay that message or whatever.  Because sometimes people above you or parents or whatever, they can see things through only one lens. And it reminds you that you have to see it through all perspectives before you make a decision on something or a change choice, because you have to live with that. And you don't want to be a ‘wishy washy leader’, but you still want to do what's best for everyone involved and make sure that you can look at things from a different perspective from the kids, from the parents, from the teachers, from. I mean, you have to include yours and how it affects their day and what they go home to and all those things.. 

23:31
Danny
For the ruckus maker listening when you read that book, you learn the virtues of courage, wisdom, justice and temperance. And we describe them in the book. There's also,  one of my favorite parts. I don't know how far in you are, but I like the case studies, right? Like the examples of real leadership challenges you're going to face. And then you mentioned it, right? Leadership is hard, but there's the leaders who experience the hard and become the worst version of themselves, right? And then there's everybody else, right, who can rise to the challenge and still with wisdom, courage, temperance, justice, deal with those challenges and people respect that. So anyways, I think that's a good reason to check out the book. And the benefit is equanimity, that peace, that calm. 

24:28
Danny
Just like we kind of started this conversation, right? We can experience calm entering the school year. So I think my last question before, sort of questions I asked all my guests at the end of the show, just like, what are you excited about? So, new campus, right? You're starting the school year. What are some of the things you're most excited about? 

24:50
Lindsay
I am excited. It's a little bigger district. I have more kids. I have more resources. But what I'm really excited about is I have a superintendent that is passionate about her job and just organized and welcoming. So it's a whole new community, and I am moving in the process of that, actually. And the whole community has been so kind and they've been very welcoming. And just yesterday, the FFA group reached out. Hey, let us know what day you're coming in. We'll be at your house and we'll help you move and all of those things together. Like, just a group of people that seem to work well with each other, I'm just getting to know there's two other principals. There's an elementary principal and junior high principal, and then myself and I met the other two principals a couple of times. 

25:49
Lindsay
We got to spend a little bit of time together at the principals conference in Wichita last weekend. So that was kind of nice. And were looking. We are going to have a retreat together this Friday, and so I'm excited about that. Just kind of learning each other's workflow and building that relationship and. And just getting some put together that I could look forward to the school year instead of just wondering what this is about. No. Wonder what having a roadmap, I guess. I'm excited for that. 

26:23
Danny
Brilliant. So I love to ask all my guests if they could put one message right on all school marquees around the world for a single day, what might be a message that you would put on there? Lindsay? 

26:37
Lindsay
The first thing that comes to my mind is what I always tell my own kids, and I don't think it's bad, but they'll tell you to always say, do better. And it doesn't mean, like what you're doing is terrible or not good enough, but you can always strive for more and you can continue to learn. And so it's pretty simple. I know that, but I know it's instilled in my kids head, and I. It's just something I frequently will say just do better. Like, I don't like complaining and whining and things like that. It doesn't go well orI didn't get the part or I didn't get the job, which has happened so you got to do better. 

27:24
Danny
Do better next time. 

27:25
Lindsay
Yep. You can't complain about it. You just have to figure out what you need. What do you get more practice or whatever. 

27:33
Danny
So, yeah, I love that. I mean, fun fact. That's why I started this show, right? I saw leadership gaps that I had in my own leadership, and the system I was in was a very large system, Chicago Public Schools. So to third largest at the time. I don't know if Houston took over size wise, but anyways, there just weren't a lot of opportunities for assistant principals in terms of professional development. But I knew I had more to offer. So I could have gone the whining route and thrown a pity party and been like they don't provide it for me. And so I'm just not. What I did was I started this show to talk to the Lindsay's of the world, learn from your stories of success and failure. And I figured, hey, if I just get one idea that I can implementI would become a better leader. And that's true. The other thing I want to add on is Maya Angelou said, do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, feel better, right?  

28:35
Lindsay
Yeah, right. 

28:35
Danny
That's really great wisdom that Maya shares. So let's say you're building your dream school, right? And you don't have any limitations, even in terms of budgethouse. So the only constraint is your ability to think big and imagine what would be the three guiding principles of that dream school. 

28:58
Lindsay
Three guiding principles of a dream school with no budget and no. Oh, that's hard. Just. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that kids are all safe and fed and all basic needs are met. And so then, therefore, then once all that's taken care of, then we can just. The floodgates can open, and then the kids have all sorts of resources to learn from and experience. And We can go and do things, or we can grow gardens, or we can have virtual reality things or job experiences or. Man, I don't know, not just your classroom of desk and an iPad or a laptop. Just everything is right there. No, no kid or teacher has to worry about where anything comes from. It's all just taken care of. I don't know. That's a big question. 

30:01
Danny
It is, yeah. I like the idea of just providing. I've talked to some leaders, too, that have run campuses and done their best so that no student is lacking. . So that they can experience everything that a kid with a lot of resources would, too. And so I like how you're. I like how you're thinking about that. Plus, you were gazing out, right? And you could see the school, too. I could tell. So that was. Yeah, that was cool to experience, but, yeah. Thanks for jamming there. I know it is a big question. I think we can end with this then. We covered a lot of ground today, right? And of everything we discussed, what do you think is the one thing a ruckus maker should remember? 

30:47
Lindsay
Keep your head up, keep working hard, build those relationships, because those tend to branch out. And we are in a people business, and we are here to help each other, and that's the only way we make it in what we do. So just. I really just think building in those relationships and enjoying your job. Enjoy. Yes, there's hard days, but when those relationships are built and you have those support systems, you will make it through there. So the kids need you to. So if you are doing 100% what's best, those kiddos that we go out and teach every day, you will be successful. 

31:30
Danny
Thanks for listening to the Better leaders Better Schools podcast Ruckus maker. How would you like to lead with confidence, swap exhaustion for energy, turn your critics into cheerleaders and so much more? The Ruckus Maker Mastermind is a world class leadership program designed for growth minded school leaders just like you. Go to betterleadersbetterschools.com Mastermind, learn more about our program and fill out the application. We'll be in touch within 48 hours to talk about how we can help you be even more effective. And by the way, we have cohorts that are diverse and mixed up. We also have cohorts just for women in leadership and a BIPOC only cohort as well. When you're ready to level up, go to betterleadersbetterschools.com mastermind and fill out the application. Thanks again for listening to the show. Bye for now and go make a ruckus.