David Wood: Four Steps to Master Tough Conversations

Speaker 1: 00:00 Welcome to the Better Leaders Better Schools Podcast. This is your friendly neighborhood podcast host Daniel Bauer.

Speaker 2: 00:12 [Inaudible]

Speaker 3: 00:12 Better leaders. Better schools is a weekly show for ruckus maker. What is a ruckus maker? A leader who’s found freedom from the status quo. A leader who makes change happen. A leader who never ever gives up.

Speaker 1: 00:28 Why is it that school can be a place of love in of learning, but also some of the most hurtful moments in a young person’s life? Think about it. I don’t know what your school experience was like, but I can consider my grade school high school experience and there were some mean kids to me in sometimes I was the mean kid. What’s that all about? And can you imagine after 10 or 20 or 30 years they kid who bullied you in, made you feel so small and terrible about yourself? Can you imagine having a conversation with him or with her and just letting him know, Hey, I’m calling. I want you to know that I’m letting go of the bitterness. You see, tough conversations are actually crucial to your effectiveness as a leader. And if you want to level up your leadership ability, then you’re excited for today’s episode. Cause I talked to David Wood and he’s a master of tough conversations. So ruckus maker. Thanks for being here and right before we jump into this show on tough conversations. Let’s take some time to thank our show sponsors

Speaker 4: 01:49 [Inaudible]

Speaker 1: 01:49 The better leaders. Better schools podcast is brought to you by organized binder, a program designed to develop your students executive function and non cognitive skills. Learn more in an organized binder.com

Speaker 4: 02:03 Eh,

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Speaker 1: 02:25 Isolation is the number one enemy of excellence in isolation is also a choice. There’s a better way. In fact, here’s what Michelle, a school leader in Maryland has to say about the mastermind. The best part of the mastermind is a supportive community. School leadership can be isolating, but knowing I have a team of other school leaders with whom to share ideas, struggles, and wins gives me the courage and resolve to do what’s best for my school community. Get connected and level up your leadership by applying to the mastermind today at better leaders, better schools.com

Daniel: 03:00 David built the world’s largest coaching business, coaching thousands of hours in 12 countries around the globe. He now coaches high-performing executives, entrepreneurs, teams, and even prison inmates to create amazing results in Deep Connection One tough conversation at a time. David, welcome to the show.

David: 03:25 Thanks, Daniel. I’m excited.

New Speaker: 03:27 I am too. I really enjoyed our intro call and I love this story we’re going to jump into. If people have heard my origin story, they know that I struggled and held on to bitterness for about 14 months before releasing that. Okay, but you have a story of letting go, resentment and bitterness that you’ve been carrying for 40 years. You called a former bully and had a conversation there, and so can we start with that story?

David: 03:58 Sure. I did a personal development course and they kept asking me, what’s incomplete in your life?

David: 04:05 I said nothing. And as we dug deeper and they ask questions like, is there anybody that you resent? Is there anybody that you hate? Do you feel victimized by anybody currently in your life? Or, of your past 27 years, I was 27 years old. And I’m like, no. But as we kept going, I came up with a list and lo and behold, more people kept coming up. And one guy was the guy that I used to be really good friends with. We lived a block from each other. It’s cool, grew up together and I felt like he was a real dick to me. He one upped me all the time. He was better with the joke. I’d feel humiliated around him and immediately resented him. And so he was on my list and I said, I’m not calling him. I’m not.

David: 04:55 And it’s ironic, I mean, now on the tough conversations Ninja, and I’m all about have conversation, but I was too scared and what my coach said is Well, why, what are you afraid of? I said, he’s gonna think I’m a dictator. He’s gonna think I’m an absolute idiot. So calling him 20 years after school and being vulnerable in front of him and she said, and lead with that and that was really good coaching. And I was able to call him and leave with that and say, I am so why aren’t you going to think I’m an absolute idiot calling you on this topic after 20 years. And he said, well, what do you got? You know, I’m curious. And I told him, I’ve resented you for 20 years. I felt like you always one upped me. I tried to one up you, but you were better at it.

David: 05:45 And I felt humiliated and I’ve been holding onto it for 20 years and I’m letting go of it. I’m willing to let you go.

Daniel: 05:53 I love the coaching tip that you were given as well to lead with that where you’re feeling the most vulnerable and the most scared. Can you connect the dots, for the ruckus maker listening? Why is that such an important part to start with?

David: 06:09 It’s critical to name it for yourself. So once I named it for myself, cause it’s like being afraid in the night, you don’t know of what, but as soon as you know, Oh wait, there’s a noise over there. And I’m afraid that it might be a large animal. It helps. So at least name the fear, and it might’ve been possible that I could have a conversation without telling him but I had to name it for myself.

David: 06:39 And then when I named it with him, I think it was relational. He can understand, Oh, this is where you’re coming from. You’re in a place of vulnerability. You’re on your edge right here. And he became compassionate. And then when I shared all this with him, he said the most amazing thing, he said, what can I say or do now to help you or us going forward? And he’s a school teacher now.

Daniel: 07:07 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Was that surprising to hear that?And can you remember him replying that way? How you felt?

David: 07:15 I was shocked because I was worried about being slammed. I’m worried about him saying F off, something in a wuss. I’m a man and I grew up in Australia. Those are two reasons some might say to me, stop being a wuss, particularly an Australian guy.

David: 07:34 I thought he was a jerk and here he is being nice to me and wanting us to be positive and move forward. And I think it shifted my reality. I had to start questioning my other beliefs if I thought that this guy was an absolute dickhead for 20 years and now he’s not. What other assumptions? August.

Daniel: 07:57 It’s such a critical piece to challenge your beliefs and assumptions that you’re making. I wonder why that’s so empowering, I’m sure in the moment to have that aha, that epiphany. It makes me think like as a leader and we’re going to get into tough conversations, but don’t we? We play it up so much within our heads before even having the conversation. It’s always so much worse up here in our head than in reality.

David: 08:26 It’s a nightmare in our head. Sometimes the tough, the toughest conversation is the one you have with yourself in the days and weeks and years leading up to the actual conversation.

David: 08:40 And then if you do the work and we’ll show you ruckus makers how to prepare for any tough conversation and the four steps actually go through it. And when you prepare and you do it, you may find that it goes a lot easier than you ever imagined. It’s really all your stuff. Oh, what’s going to happen? And then if you come out with some vulnerability and some care and you’re not dumping on somebody else, you may be shocked. Well, how well the conversation can go in between two humans that ultimately want the best for each other.

Daniel: 09:14 I can’t wait to get into the four steps. Tough conversations are essential to your effectiveness as a leader. I’ve studied a number of approaches and studying and actually doing it are two different things. And ruckus maker that’s listening, they’ve heard this story and the gist of it is there was a teacher I had a conflict with. She rarely came to school. It’s not good and the book room for the whole department that served all the kids in the English department of our school was in her room. And when she would miss school, that book room was locked. I got my hands on a key and I would unlock that room so the kids would have access to the books because asking her to be at school and these kinds of things wasn’t working. Long story short, we have this crucial conversation. I’m trying to make it safe. I’m trying to empathize and I lost it David. And when I saw that the conversation wasn’t going how I played it out in my head, I looked at her, I had the key in my hand and I said I’ll never give this key back and I really just screwed up that conversation. Didn’t do anything for the relationship.

Daniel: 10:26 The book room didn’t get open. I ended up giving the key back cause you know, I was just being a jerk myself. But that’s my point that studying and doing are two different things. So I am eager to hear your first steps. I’m always eager to learn more tips around tough conversations.

David: 10:40 Well I’m also thinking before we jump into the four steps, we can make it real for the ruckus maker and talk about the types of conversations people are avoiding and find difficult. And I’m interested in your feedback. What are some of the toughest conversations that a principal or teacher would probably be facing in their job.

Daniel: 11:00 A big one would be we’re potentially not renewing your contract or we’re going to have to put you on a professional improvement plan. That’s getting into worthand how’s that person going to respond?

Daniel: 11:16 How are they going to feel? And it’s also a scary conversation, right. To tell somebody.

David: 11:23 Yeah. That’s a classic one. In any work situation you need to improve. It’s hard to tell anyone. Or even though we’re in a relationship, I need more from you. That’s an awkward one. And you’re not going to get the promotion, the pay rise or the project [inaudible] that’s a tough one. And in fact saying no to anybody can be a tough conversation. Saying no to your sister or child or parent who wants you to pick them up from the airport and you really don’t want to do it. No in itself is a tough conversation.

Daniel: 11:54 That yes to no ratio can be out of whack for a lot of leaders.

David: 11:58 Yes, that too. I’ve got a top 10 list here of some of the situations at work. You screwed up. You’re fired. I’m feeling micromanaged.

David: 12:08 I need you to change your behavior. I’m not feeling supported. I need help. I’m not feeling appreciated dealing with frustrated teachers. I imagine it could be really tough conversations asking frustrated teachers or parents and then asking parents for some kind of change in behavior. Can you do this with your children? I imagine that would be difficult. Can you bathe your child? Can you, I don’t know. I haven’t been a teacher, but I imagine there could be significant ones. How about you broker an agreement. You said you would do this and you didn’t do it. You said you’d get it to me by five o’clock and you didn’t do it. Holding someone accountable to their word. Yup. I don’t like you being late. I want you to be on time. So again, there are so many rich conversations that we avoid or don’t know how to have or might have but don’t have them artfully and they can be a train wreck as you so well illustrated with your example.

Daniel: 13:11 Thank you. Another one that we talk about a lot, especially in the leadership community, I have principals are a lot more sensitive to the trauma that kids are going through these days, which are triggering negative behaviors, right. And those behaviors aren’t wanted in the classroom. Obviously it’s causing disruptions. But the kid needs something that the school might not be providing in the moment anyway. Some teachers escalate that situation. They pour gasoline on the fire and they make things a million times worse. So you have this kid who’s hurting, who’s displaying behaviors that aren’t desirable in the classroom. And then the teacher is making it worse because they’ve taken it personal, right. And they’re thinking, okay, I’m not being effective with all the kids or this kid again is acting up and how do I help them? That’s a tough conversation as well.

David: 14:06 Yeah, that’s great. So you’ve got principal to teacher, you got principal to parent, you’ve got teacher to parent and then you’ve got teacher to kid. And then also, this stuff can apply for the kids. Any ruckus makers listening to this to decide to practice this tough conversations material. You can teach this to the kids so that they can have tough conversations with you or without a kids or with their parents. This can really ripple through.

Daniel: 14:36 Yeah, that’s great. And then the only other situation I’m thinking about right now is you’ve let a team member down. Highly effective schools tend to be fairly collaborative with teachers planning together, designing units together, looking at assessments together and then redesigning the curriculum so that the kids that didn’t get it are lifted up and those, they got it the first time are accelerated further.

Daniel: 15:05 Like any organization, people are coming with different skillsets and what they’re bringing to the table. But that’s a tough conversation when some people aren’t pulling their weight, so to speak.

David: 15:16 Yeah, for sure. So I screwed up or I let you down can be awkward. Any kind of confession is a tough conversation. And then from the other side, I feel like you let me down. I feel let down. Yeah. I feel like you’re not pulling away and I want you to step up. That’s fine.

Daniel: 15:39 That’s the one that’s the one there. Typically teachers don’t like having that with their peers. So they come to the principal to say, Hey David, he’s not pulling his weight. Principal, can you go tell David that he’s not pulling his weight. We can’t tell him because for whatever reason, but we want you because you’re the principal.

David: 15:59 Well, let’s use that then. I was going to ask you for an example. So then when I go through the four steps. Yes. So that’s the one then. You know someone’s not pulling their weight. All right. And we’ll go, let’s say they’re a Jill and Jack, right? So Jill’s gotta go to Jack and say, Hey, what’s that? All right, so the steps, firstly I know there are four steps, this is step zero, which is prepare. So you want to prepare before you actually don’t have it. And some of the questions on I have a worksheet where I’ve listed six questions to prepare and then the actual four steps and we’ll give that to you by us at the end of this podcast. So stick around, we’ll give you the link where you can download this if you want.

David: 16:45 So the preparing is you pick someone. And it takes someone that I’ve got an issue with. You may not even have a conversation that’s clear. You just know you’ve got a problem with someone. Then you write down your intention and your hope. You want to get clear like water. Why would I even have this conversation? And in our example, Jill might say the hope might be that we can work better as a team or hog might be that, that we get more done for the kids in this project. Well hope might be that I get this off my chest and I feel better working with you. Look at the whole, and then what’s one fear or concern you have around the conversation? There’s definitely a fear or concern or it wouldn’t be a tough conversation. You just have it. So I might, if I’m Jill, I might be worried that Jack’s gonna get defensive and be upset with me for bringing up the sushi.

David: 17:45 And I’m wondering, I might make up words and then there’s a little checkbox on the worksheet. I am willing to accept this possible consequence and that’s critical if you’re not willing to accept the possible consequence. For example I coach someone who committed a crime when he was much younger, he burgled at the house and he went to confess 20 years later. And you know, there’s a risk of prosecution. I myself have gone back and tracked someone down and confessed to a crime I committed in my youth and said I’m sorry. It was me. I could have been prosecuted and I could have gone to prison. I’m like, it was wrong. I really am sorry. So you’ve gotta be willing to accept this possible consequence if you’re not going to have the conversation. And then the next step is just work out what’s the truth. , What is it I want to express?

David: 18:36 And this is where, Oh, I call it an extent. This is another question as you prepare and get yourself ready for it, is there a request you can make? Don’t just complain. I feel frustrated that you keep saying you’re going to do this part of the project and it’s been three weeks and I haven’t seen any. Don’t just leave it at that. And I have a request. My request is that you step up and commit to firm deliverables when we have our meetings and that you reduce the last deliverable by the end of tomorrow. That’s my request. And of course you can accept the client or counter offer. It’s not a demand. That’s my request. What am I asking for? So leadership moves, that’s most of the preparation. There’s another one I’ll leave for you guys to read when you download the worksheet. It’s about getting out a post as well. It’s trying to get into their shoes. So Daniel, I’m curious any questions or comments on that preparation before we jump into the actual four steps of having the conversation?

Daniel: 19:45 I like all that because what I’m hearing is that I just want to reflect back that it really makes you very intentional about the, what’s it for, right? You’re having this tough conversation, but why, what’s the big why? The hope, intention, getting that off your chest, the fear and the concern, knowing what the truth is because a lot of times I think that gets to the craziness, the amplification that we blow up in our minds, right? And what is the truth? Okay, this probably isn’t what’s going to happen. What is the truth around this and what type of requests do I have to make this a successful dialogue? So I just, I love the intentionality there.

David: 20:24 Yeah. Thank you. Couple of things to emphasize. One is we’re looking for the profit in this. I think profit is a great word and it’s not just for businesses. What’s the gain that’s a hope or intention. And having this call, this is what I hope to gain and what am I risking? Right. And usually in my experience, like 95, 99% of the time, it’s a potential gain to me outweighs the risks. Even if Jack gets upset and quits the part, quits the team, I believe that that was probably a better outcome than continuing with frustration for the next six months. Right. So I believe it’s often worth it. But you know, there are cases in my own life where I say it’s not worth it. I have risked prison to apologize to someone, but if I’m in Bali and I’m renting a Villa and then subletting a room and immigration shows up and wants to question me on it.

David: 21:24 It’s a tough conversation, right? Now the gain is I could be in integrity and have some peace around it and pay the fine and get the order and just kind of like have that clean it up. Okay. The risk, apparently was jail time. They take it very seriously in Bali. So I’m risking jail time and negotiating huge bribes from within jail, which is not a good negotiating position. So I chose not to have that conversation. I left Bali the same day. I had a life there. I was settled. I had a mansion, staff and a cat and friends and furniture. I left the same day because I didn’t think there was overall gain in that conversation. So I want you guys to use this worksheet so that you can just work it out. Is there a potential gain and 95% of the time in my experience there is. The other thing, is there a bunch of pro tips too, which I want to go through, but a bunch of tips to help you really artfully have this conversation.

Daniel: 22:31 There’s tons of value there and like you’ve mentioned at the end of the show we’ll give away that four-step playbook and people can download it.

David: 22:41 Yeah. Yeah. So we’ll go through the actual four steps. Do we have time or we can just send them to the download?

Daniel: 22:47 We can highlight the four steps for sure, but we’re going to just take a pause here just for a moment for a message from our sponsors,

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Daniel: 23:19 Today’s podcast is sponsored by SaneBox. I’m a current subscriber to SaneBox and it is absolutely a tool that all school leaders cannot live without. Why do I love it? It just works. There is nothing to learn, nothing to install. And SaneBox works directly with every single email service out there. Imagine a world where only the important emails make it to your inbox. All the unimportant stuff is magically filtered out to folders that you can review later. That’s SaneBox’s artificial intelligence working behind the scenes. It has saved me countless hours of filtering emails each week and it will do the same for you. If I could give you three or more extra hours each week, what would you be able to accomplish with that time? That’s what SaneBox does for me, and it will do it for you. Start your free two-week trial and get a $25 credit by visiting sanebox.com/BLBS. That’s sanebox.com/BLBS.

Daniel: 24:19 All right, and we’re back with David Wood. And listen, we were just talking about the preparation needed and that was some massive value in terms of getting ready for a tough conversation. Incredible tips there that you can take action on, questions to reflect on and you’re going to get the whole playbook at the end of this episode to download.

Daniel: 24:45 But I think, listen, we’ve teased them enough. Can we at least dig into these four steps a bit?

David: 24:52 Yeah. Great. So step one is enroll a person and having the conversation. This is where you sell it. You don’t just walk in and just jump and say, Hey Jack, you’re just not pulling your weight. No, we don’t do that. So we want to get Jack on board. And there are two ways to do that. You do two things. One is you ask permission and the words I really love that you can write down and use for any tough conversation. Hey, do you have 10 minutes for a potentially awkward, possibly interesting conversation?

Daniel: 25:20 I love that because it frames it, right? Like ah, I’m feeling awkward. I’m feeling weird about this. But there might be some amazing stuff on the other side of it if we’re willing to go there.

David: 25:35 Yeah, that’s right. And this is also where you’d share your hope from the worksheet. You got 10 minutes, they might go maybe and this way share your hope. My hope is that out of this conversation, we’ll work together better as a team and feel really good working, working with the child. Alright. Yup. And most people are going to say yes and you might set a time for it. Whatever. Step two, this is where you share your fear or concern. And this is an optional step. You don’t have to do this every time, but you might find it lets you settle a bit more and makes it more relational. Jack, I’m a bit worried about, you know, my fear and having this conversation is you might feel defensive and you might not listen to me and I want to have the conversation anyway.

David: 26:27 I think I just want wanna I just wanted to name that. That’s really important language. I just want to name that because if you say here’s my fear, it might feel like they’ve got to fix it or respond to it. I just want to name that so it’s, I’m not hiding it and then step three, share what’s up. I’ve been feeling frustrated about this project. I’m feeling like I want you to deliver on wall. That’s what’s up. And my request would be that we have, you know, we went through the requests, some deliverables and that by the end of tomorrow you actually delivered the last piece, that’s why you share what’s up. And then step four, this is where you get curious. You get curious and negotiate. You want to know about that Jack’s world now so you like, thank you for listening.

David: 27:24 I’d love to know how this lands for you and you know how you’re experiencing this and if you have better ideas, maybe you’ve been working like crazy in the background. I don’t even know. This way you want to get Jack’s world find out what a tough conversation Daniel. We don’t want a tough monologue.

Daniel: 27:42 That’s key, right?

David: 27:46 Yeah. So get Jack’s world and negotiate. Jack might be like, I’m doing a whole bunch of stuff or you might find out that Jack’s got a sick daughter at home and just doesn’t really have time for the project and maybe it’s best to check not be on the team. You don’t know. And this is where you really want to get out of your world and get into Jack’s world and then this is where the magic happens and you may not get what you want it.

Speaker 5: 28:12 That’s pretty cool. [inaudible] Want to be open to hearing it now if you’re not open to hearing and no, it’ll be a tougher conversation. It really will cause you’ve got your world and you want to Ram it down Jack. So well when you’re often and you can really well we use the magic whether with another human being [inaudible] connecting the dots. That was a big reason why I was such a failure with the key. You’re never going to get this key back from me. I learned that years ago just thinking my outcome was the only outcome that was possible. I wasn’t curious. I wasn’t open minded to what’s going on. And when I reflected on the conversation, the thing that kept coming up was that she felt that there were certain things cause she was a, the union had as well. Right. And thought that there was a risk of if the room was open, that people might get hands on their stuff.

Speaker 5: 29:05 And really I was a disrespect in her environment. Well, we had to, we had to figure out like how to negotiate that and keep her materials secure and private and safe in order to make that she’s got concerns. Yeah. I wasn’t open to hearing it. It was just book, book, vault open. Kids need to learn like figure it out. And so I know I blew that. And that’s such an important part. Cause every, every conversation has different probabilities, right? You might not get what you want and you have to be open to what’s going on. We all have blind spots in this curiousness what us to do is you have this, that iceberg, right? The metaphorical iceberg. You only see what’s going on above the surface, but all of these things might be happening. Won’t that give you a better perspective and how to approach the situation.

Speaker 5: 29:55 So I really love that. That ending there. Good. And so well said. You know, I’m getting even clear that what makes the conversation tough is that we hate, we get tunnel vision. Yeah. I get tunnel vision on our world where we feel our fears and frustrations and whatever and it’s like, okay, I’m going to have this tough conversation. Get what I want. That’s what makes it tough. If we actually go in with, with curiosity and we might still have our stuff like yeah, I’m frustrated. I own that. I’m angry. Aye. Whatever it is. But also I’m willing to be open and hear your world. It’s not, it may not even be tough if you do that because you’re being related. You’re so right. And curiosity is the antidote to this tunnel vision. [inaudible] Tough monologue. Curiosity is the antidote with their curiosity. Sometimes they offer up the solution, right, that you either want or one, like you said, that’s better cause you might not have the best ideas.

Speaker 5: 31:00 So you’ve given so much value in speaking to curiosity, I’m curious how you answer these two questions. I ask every guest. So David, what message would you put on all school marquees around the globe? If you could do so for just a day, speak up. I would say speak up and then if I can, I can break it down into steps and say what’s my own truth? Can I reveal my experience to myself, which most humans aren’t very good at and don’t even know what’s happening. And then too, and I speak up and reveal my experienced when Nala, you’re building a school from the ground up. You’re not limited by any resources. David, your only limitation is your imagination. How would you build your dream school and what would be your top three priorities? Well, definitely, yeah, and bear in mind, I used to be an actuary, so my well was statistics, finance or whatever, and I’m a math geek, right?

Speaker 5: 32:04 Yeah. But definitely my priority would not be mathematics. Yeah. And arts and sciences and I love some of those topics. My priority would be going back to what I put in the marquee, helping kids work out what’s happening in themselves. Am I feeling threatened? Am I feeling contracted? Well, I feel like I don’t belong right now and I have a desire for belonging. So I guess we’re talking about emotional intelligence. Yeah. So number one, reveal my experience to myself and then too, can I actually check that there’s a way to reveal my experience to another? Am I willing to share? It may not be. That’s okay too. You can learn as when to share it with another. You’re not going to share 100% of things with people. But I’d like to see kids being, having the ability to say, and not as, I feel scared right now, I’m in fight or flight and I’d like to feel safer with you.

Speaker 5: 33:08 What can we do? So reveal your experience to yourself and then find ways to reveal your experience to another. This is how we can actually be relational as humans and we’re not very good at it generally and being relational cause we weren’t taught. Hmm. And then maybe the third step would be curiosity. Can we teach curiosity? I change so that they get curious and ask themselves, wow, wonder why I’m reacting like that. Why am I defending myself all the time? Then interesting curiosity for another. I wonder why he [inaudible] take my bag every morning and throw it in the trash.

Speaker 5: 33:50 Why? Why would, why would he do that? And start getting curious about, about the other persons as well. So I, I think in doing that we would create a whole army of leaders and I think that’s good for the world. And then you know, the mathematics and all that other stuff. That’s great. Let’s teach kids that too. But I want them relational. I want us all to be relational. It’s really just about building better humans, you know, and we’ll figure the rest of this stuff out. I think what you’re saying there, so we were talking about this giveaway, what you have for them, that four step tough conversations blueprint. Yeah. And I got some exciting goodies for you guys at the same link. So if you go to play for real, don’t laugh. That’s played for, for play, for real life. L I F T you can download the full step.

Speaker 5: 34:48 Tough conversations blueprint. Enjoy. Share it if you like with your teachers, kids if you like. And also I have a, we like as we were talking Daniel, I was thinking, I want to know what the conversations are that the listeners are dealing with and I want to help. I have a free weekly zoom call. Anybody around the world can come in and we’ll role play any tough conversation you had. You can turn your video off if you want. You can have a fake name if you want to be anonymous. I will role play it with you in in five or 10 minutes and you will leave knowing how to have that tough conversation so you can get the zoom call and also if you’re interested in tough conversations, training and coaching for your school. It could be just your teachers, it could teachers and parents.

Speaker 5: 35:38 It’s what we teach as parents and kids. I just started thinking about that while we’re on this call. Daniel. Yeah, and set up a call with me please. I’d love to talk about it. I’ve got a new Justin time of conversations [inaudible] program for whole teams people so they can book a session just when they need it and role play that conversation and go back out and happen. Perfect. And we’ll have that linked up for the ruckus maker, but it’s played for real life. David, thank you so much for being a part of the better leaders, better schools, podcast, all the things we talked about today. What’s the one thing you want a ruckus maker to remember that 70%. Well, remember I’m throwing in new information. It’s 70% of people in a work environment are avoiding a tough conversation and it doesn’t have to be that way. Let’s let’s cut that number in half and remember that support is available. You don’t have to be walking around trying to work and how to do these on your own. You’ve got the free weekly zoom call. We’ve got this blueprint that you can download and then you’ve got when you just in time service, you don’t have to do it all.

Speaker 3: 36:54 Thanks for listening to the Better Leaders Better Schools Podcast for ruckus maker. If you have a question or would like to connect my email, Daniel F better leaders, better schools.com or hit me up on Twitter at alien earbud. If the Better Leaders Better Schools Podcast is helping you grow as a school leader, then please help us serve more ruckus makers like you. You can subscribe, leave an honest rating and review or share on social media with your biggest takeaway from the episode. Extra credit for tagging me on Twitter at alien earbud and using the hashtag B L B S level up your leadership at better leaders, better schools.com and talk to you next time until then, class dismissed.