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Show Highlights
You can't Tier 2 or 3 yourself out of a Tier 1 problem.
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Beyond the Institution: Redesigning School Spaces
Danny
Absolutely. So I want to start talking about intentional space design teaching, and being an administrator, being a student. And often schools were kind of dreary, very institutional, terrible lighting. It wasn't an exciting place that I wanted to be in. And I know that you're very passionate about designing school spaces that are not traditional or institutional. So can you talk about the design process at the district level?
07:12
Dr Vitale
Sure, I'd love to. First of all, I should begin with school superintendents and our training. Even in our doctoral level classes, we don't get any training on school construction. We might talk, and today there's a little more discussion surrounding learning spaces. But in my undergrad training, graduate training, and my doctoral level training, I never talked about that. And I always thought, I never want to be involved in construction because that's not really my forte. I want to be involved in instruction, not construction, but ministry. Absolutely. We're outgrowing our buildings, and they're old, and like many districts in, you know, haven't really saved to update buildings. And so we reached a point at Seneca Valley where we were growing again, and it was time for an older building to be so, you know, we began down this path knowing very little about school construction.
08:20
Dr Vitale
Most school leaders, school board members, know very little. You might have a board member who has some background in construction, and hopefully your director of buildings and grounds has a little bit of background. But the reality is, I can work with our business manager on funding. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at getting teachers what they need. I see myself as kind of like the resource queen sometimes. You got a good idea, I'll find a way to fund it. But what I wasn't prepared for was $100 million. That's bigger than I pride myself on. If I can find a million in a year to get an initiative off the ground for a teacher, that's huge, because, let's face it, if I knew how to make 3 million, I probably would be talking to you from a different scenery, nevertheless.
So it's just not an area that school superintendents are well versed in. So when we went down this path of looking at first feasibility studies, what do we do with the old buildings? Can they renovate? Or is it time you look at a car and you say, at what point? Do you just need a new car? So we had reached that point, we'd be researching around 1516 where to start first, because we have many old buildings. And so the board, after feasibility studies, after bringing in construction managers, construction experts, engineers, decided that it was time to replace our oldest building, which was designed to be a high school, and then morphed over the years into an elementary school. So that happens a lot in the United States. And so when I told my husband I was embarking on this journey of construction that I knew nothing about and he knows nothing about, he said, whatever you do, just don't build another institution. Now, I don't like to give him a lot of credit, so I'm hoping he doesn't listen to this podcast.
10:24
Danny
I won't send it to him because.
10:25
Dr Vitale
I'd like to take it. Okay. I take good ideas from everyone. And I thought about the institution. I was a little offended at first. We don't have institutions. What does he mean? And I got very defensive. And then one day, not long after that conversation, I was walking through our intermediate high school, which is a 910 building, and the walls were so drab. We must have had a discount on state paint that year, because I thought, okay, I need to look at this differently. This yellow, pale yellow paint. This is what he's talking about in this long hall that almost looks like a hospital, not a school. Shame on me. Have I become part of these institutions? And I don't see it. So from that point on, it was like an epiphany. That's it.
11:19
Dr Vitale
I said to my team, where can we find some of the newest schools that have been built in the United States? Where can we find schools outside of the United States? And we just began on this journey as a team, trying to find the coolest environment for a school that we could find. And really what we did was we set out to not build a school at all. And this new building that we just opened is called Irman Elementary Ermine Middle School. It opened in 2002. So we're about a year and a half into utilizing this building. Brand new building. It, to our surprise, was recognized by Times magazine as one of the best 200 inventions in 2022, which we never set out to do. Again, this is social media the Times magazine Time found us.
12:11
Dr Vitale
Again, we didn't set out to design an award winning building. We set out to design not an institution, not a school. But instead we settled on, let's design a school, especially an elementary, lower level, middle school, as kind of like a children's museum. I'm a big fan of museums. I love museums, especially children's museums. They're very hands on. So we hired a consultant from the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh and Fulham. She sat with us at design, and there's no doubt through all the design processes, all the pictures we looked at, all the things that she said would maybe work in a school. We went and visited the children's museum again. I had been there, but went again to Pittsburgh and took our whole leadership team and said, what do you love about this learning space?
13:05
Dr Vitale
And then we tried to replicate that in a school. So it's easy to build on the perimeter. That's easy. But I was not going to do that. Number one, to prove my husband wrong, but number two, I just wanted this to be an environment where as soon as kids saw the building from the outside, be excited, right. That they would be like, wait, is this a school? And then when they walked inside, was this still a school? It does not look like a school, which I love.
13:39
Danny
So can you paint a picture of what kids and staff experience as they enter this building? Just because this is an audio format. Right. And I bet right now people are getting excited. Okay, so you did build an institution. We get what a museum could be like, especially a kids museum. But what are some of the things that we might see or hear or experience?
14:02
Dr Vitale
I was really focused on and taken by all the museums I had visited. And I also had this amazing opportunity to visit the schools in Finland back in 2017. I think that was. And so that really impacted the way I think about schools and what they could be in America as well. So there's a little taste of the Finnish schools. There's a taste of our Pittsburgh children's museum. There are pieces that, all good ideas should be replicated, in my opinion. And you may not be able to do that necessarily in the business world with patents, but in schools and in education, we love to steal good ideas and give people credit. The Carnegie Science Museum here in Pittsburgh, I always loved when I was in that with my younger children, the big ramp, like, you didn't have to take the steps. Those are boring. You didn't have to take one of these circular ramps in the Helsinki library. It was a newer library when I had visited, and I thought, what a cool space like this is a learning space. So we have a circular ramp as soon as you open the foyer doors, and that is the first thing the kids see. That, too, is a learning space. And where we really landed through all of this brainstorming and meeting with stakeholders and involving a lot of people over many years, we landed. I kept pushing this notion that the building should be a teaching tool. It should be part of the learning, part of the teaching.
15:40
Dr Vitale
It shouldn't be just a space where we learn, but in every aspect of the building, there are little curious and curious questions that we pose throughout the outside of the building before you come into the building. So as soon as you park your car and look at the building, there are curious questions as soon as you come to the front of the building about why these pillars are angled? What are these measurements? This measures x amount of kips. What are kips? So we have metric, we have standard measurements, but we don't give the answers away. But the adults, too, are thinking about, what is the story here? What's going on here with these beams that are holding the canopy up? And in the.
16:48
Dr Vitale
Another question, I will tell you, I'd love for you to come see the building, but we'd love to have you in our canopy. I insisted that the lights portray the night sky in the month that we would open the building. And so they are placed in star constellations, what the September sky looked like in western Pennsylvania when we opened the building in the fall of 2022. But we don't give that away. We pose questions about, what do you think? What could these be that cost us? Nothing. So there are a lot of unique design components that are very cost efficient as well.
17:30
Danny
Yeah. Offline. We'll talk about a visit, because I feel like I have to see the place now. You're making me want to come.
17:38
Dr Vitale
It's a fun place. It's really a fun place for all learners of all ages.
17:42
Danny
And if we could backtrack a bit. I latched onto this idea because, big reason I didn't tell you this in the pre chat before we hit record, but this show was created because of the gaps that I found in my leadership. Right. The things that weren't taught at graduate school or within the district or whatever on how to be more effective as a leader. And I just knew. And so I figured if I talk to the Dr. Vitals of the world, learn from your stories of success and failure, and most importantly, implement one idea that you teach me, then I would grow, and I didn't know that it would change my life by doing this learning in public. But you've identified it. Sounds like a big gap for superintendents in terms of construction and designing learning spaces. Can you give an overview?
18:32
Danny
Because I don't think we'll have time to get into the nitty gritty details. You don't have to give a master class on this either, but just some sort of like, the big ideas of what a superintendent needs to sort of process when considering creating a new building that's not an institution. Right. Does that question make sense?
18:52
Dr Vitale
Yes, but it goes back even further that all of my ideas would not have put together a very good building. I'm one person, and I'm not the whole answer for a large community like Seneca Valley. And so we have 53,000 constituents. We have very diverse thinking, very different political parties on both sides of the aisle. And so how do you bring all these ideas of what people want in a building from all different ages? And therefore, I think even to go into a project like this, where I was lucky, where I had things in place that I didn't realize at the time when I was an assistant superintendent, I revamped the entire hiring process. That's really my expertise. Teacher selection. How do you find good teachers? How do you get them to the table? How do you recruit once they're there?
19:56
Dr Vitale
How do you grow them? How do you retain them? And that's a huge discussion right now in our country with the teacher shortages in schools, which is very different from the business world. And so I really focused on relationships. I focused on listening to people who had totally different ideas than me. And I might initially get defensive, like I did with my husband when he said, don't build another institution. But then being curious, saying, well, tell me what you mean by that. Let me think more deeply about that. And can I put my own ego, this person in front of me, whether they're an educator or not? And I think having a good team in place is what made this building so amazing. Good leaders, good teacher leaders, good administrators, good construction managers. It just was a whole conglomerate of people.
20:58
Dr Vitale
Because I might have had an idea of what the playground should have looked like based on a playground I saw in Helsinki. But what should that look like in the United States in our, I think those are the pieces that we sometimes miss the mark on with leadership in general, teachers or administrators. But the huge gap, even if I had a class in school construction, I'm not sure it would have helped me as much as getting the right experts to the table. And that is because of relationships. That is because of honoring diverse voices. That is because of setting aside your ego as a leader and saying, maybe I don't know everything, even after 28 years, and I don't involve stakeholders. But most importantly, we're not taught this as superintendents. I hope this is changing.
22:24
Danny
Solve this problem that we're facing. And the challenge is to not evaluate any idea as bad or dumb or wouldn't ever work. To get that judging mind out of the way, throw it all down. And what you'll find is some of those wild ideas are actually like really great solutions. I appreciate you sharing that and tapping into students. Actually, before we get to students, one more question. Obviously Helsinki, Finland. You were really inspired by spaces there. Pittsburgh and Children's Museum. I heard you say, were there any other spaces around the US? You might just tell the ruckus maker listening. Hey, check out what this school is doing in terms of how it's designed. It's a pretty cool thing to see and experience. We had a difficult time finding creative elementaries. Isn't that kind of sad?
23:19
Danny
It's very sad, actually.
23:21
Dr Vitale
If our most creative, craziest looking building should be elementaries, I'm now looking for high schools. And when I ask my colleagues, I get one or two, you know, maybe this school in California. I'm researching because of cost, that's one of the main driving forces, right? Because you have to be able to pay for it. And so that's another reason we build these square boxes, because it's cheaper. But we're at a time where kids won't sit in cubicles and square boxes and work anymore. So why are we doing this in schools? Why do we still have this factory model after all these years? And so I don't have a lot that I could prop up.
24:10
Dr Vitale
I did some neighboring newer schools who I was like, okay, I like the way they're using light, natural light, and Helsinki is known for that. All the Finnish schools are about getting kids outdoors. And when they're inside in the cold winter months, bringing the outdoors in through a lot of glass. And when I first started looking at it, I wanted a lot of glass, I wanted to bring the outside in. I want these spatial sight lines to be out in every room we're in. I started getting some and we built institutions. But I would argue if you are willing to be creative enough and listen to diverse voices, student voices, people of all ages, people in all different industries. You can still do it efficiently and cheaply, but it takes time. We were five years planning this out before we ever had design on paper.
25:13
Dr Vitale
A lot of research went into it before we hired the architects. Then the architects, of course, added to that. But before we brought architects in, we needed an idea of what we were looking for. And this building is shaped to explain from an audio perspective, like a Y. As you come in, that's the base of the Y. And then they branch out and it's two stories. On one side we have k to four, kindergarten to fourth grade, and on the other side, fifth and 6th. And they share specials. And the ramp leads you to our amazing kindergarten wing because you are curious. The proof is in the pudding. Like the ramp did. It cost us a lot of money, almost a million dollars. And people would say, I would have used that in classrooms. What to add to the box.
26:02
Dr Vitale
I really pushed and fought our stakeholders to spend the money on the ramp. And the proof is in the pudding. The first day we opened, I'm at the building. I went to all the buildings on the first day, but I wanted to be there when those buses arrived. And we always have some criers, kindergartners, they're afraid to leave home. They have some school phobias. And this was the least amount of criers we ever had. And one young lady, her mom walked her to the door, she wouldn't get on the bus. And I got down at her eye level, grabbed her hand, and I said, I'm Dr. Vitel, can I walk you in? And she said. Shook her head, I'm not sure. And I said, have you been in this building? Did you see the ramp? And she said, ramp? And I said, let me show you the ramp. And the doors opened and she saw this circular ramp and she looked up at me and, with a big smile, didn't know where her mother was at this point, didn't care, and said, I love that ramp. That's all she cared about. I love that ramp. Proof is in the pudding, right? And the kids still love it. And the adults still love it. And talk about getting your exercise. This ramp, the kids walk more in the building than they do taking. There are steps that they can take and there are steps on the five, six sides, but you're trying to pique their curiosity. They're full of energy. We can do things differently. We need to do things differently.
27:34
Danny
100%. And in my first book, I talked about how Disney shouldn't be the most magical place on earth. It should be our schools, and they're not. And so, again, isn't that kind of sad? Because it's not that Disney does have an advantage with their budget. Of course. And their human resources and their team. But the reason Disney works is not the money where kids can imagine and be curious and learn and play and have fun. I think that's something that you believe, too. It's coming through in the design of your elementary school here. And I just want to commend you on the work you're doing. I'd like to shift a bit to sort of like students and teachers. And since we're talking about shifts, the traditional model is like lecturing.
28:32
Danny
Teaching, maybe even, God forbid, but there's still classrooms, right? Rows and all this kind of stuff. And I talk about how teachers should move from imparting or banking knowledge to co-creating wisdom with students. And you believe teachers should be coaches and facilitators. Would you like to riff on that perspective at all and how you maybe help teachers see themselves as coach and facilitator versus traditional lecturer?
29:02
Dr Vitale
What's interesting, just this morning I was having a text exchange with our three assistant superintendents about teacher talk versus student talk in the classroom. In traditional classrooms, the teachers do the majority of the talking. I'm guilty. I'm the former. I like to call myself a rehabilitated middle school english teacher and a senior high english teacher who would have been put out of business by now with Chat GPT. But that's a discussion, maybe for later. So how can we get teachers to reflect without it being so evaluative? Because if I say, hey, did you ever think maybe you talked too much and maybe we should let the kids talk more? It's about learning more than it is about when my husband said, don't build another institution, that's not how I want to be treated. That's not how I personally grow.
29:57
Dr Vitale
In order for me to grow, I need to be curious. We think adult learning theory is different from children's learning theory, but it's not right. We all want to have a say in our learning. I don't want to read a book that you make me read. If we learned anything through the pandemic, it should have been that people want choice. Adults and kids give me a choice in my learning. Let me have a say in my learning. Regardless of my age. I don't care if you're four or five or you are 60 or 70. Let me have a choice. And so I think we have to approach teachers, and we try to, at Seneca Valley, we are not perfect. We're trying to get better every day about choices.
30:45
Dr Vitale
And so the question would be, have you ever thought about teacher talk versus student talk? And what do you want your classroom to be, and what's the research out there? Because there's a lot of research on why kids should be talking more than teachers in the classroom. And I don't mean unorganized, chaotic talk, although chaos is okay sometimes as well. But we're even beyond that. Whole teachers should be on the side as the sage instead of being on the stage. We're beyond that. We need to be in a place, the Internet, information technology, AI, that has replaced kids and don't need me to deliver information anymore. They need me to help them organize and to assess the information and to evaluate the information. That's how my job should be changing as a teacher. And our best, our master teachers, they got that a long time ago. And when I walk into those classrooms, they just blend like they're not standing in the front. As a matter of fact, we let the teachers in this new building choose their furniture. They did not choose a stationary desk.
32:04
Danny
How about that?
32:04
Dr Vitale
There's a desk kind of built into some cabinets. They chose a technology podium, for lack of a better word, on wheels, that they can move around should they need it. But if you go into any of these elementary classrooms, and especially in the new building, the building kind of supports that whole notion of, hey, I'm moving around with the kids. I'm a learner in this classroom, and I might be facilitating some of this, but I'm not leading all the learning, but I'm guiding it.
32:38
Danny
Yeah. That's so good. Do you know the company TeachfX, by any chance?
32:43
Dr Vitale
I think that was one of the products we were looking at. Where is this the one where you record yourself as a teacher and it'll let you know how much you talked versus the kids? We're looking at that as one of the products and trying to. Again, we don't want to rule out a product that a teacher will fear. Who's going to listen to this? And will the superintendent be listening to it? And will my principal knock me down on my evaluation? That's not what it's about. It's about growth. And so a product like that, we would try to pilot with volunteer teachers who hold the data themselves for reflection.
33:21
Danny
I bring it into the conversation because they've sponsored the podcast for years and I know the schools that use it are obviously seeing positive results. And since you brought up teacher talk time versus student talk, I just wanted to make sure you knew about it or the ruckus maker listening knew about it as well. All right, great. I really enjoyed our conversation. I don't want it to end. Let me ask you one more question. And I've been asking this to all my superintendent guests, but basically with Einstein, he famously talked about if he had a problem to solve, he'd ask a question to ask and then spend 5 minutes to actually answer the question. Right. So I'm just curious as we end, you know, what's a question you would hope that more educators were asking right now?
34:23
Dr Vitale
What is AI? How will it impact teaching and learning? And I'm not as smart as Einstein, so I would spend my 55 minutes talking to kids about this.
34:38
Danny
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for being a guest.
34:42
Dr Vitale
Thank you for having me.
34:42
Danny
I appreciate you.
Navigating School Culture In Challenging Times
Thanks for hitting play. If you love exploring how to “do school different” so you can make a legendary impact on your campus, then you're in the right place. I'm Danny Bauer, and this is the better leaders, Better Schools podcast, the original Ruckus Maker podcast for visionary leaders, innovators, and rebels in education. Thanks to Ruckus Makers just like you, this podcast ranks in the top 0.5% of over 3 million worldwide shows. In today's conversation, I spoke with a principal and coacher named JJ. We cover topics like challenges in school culture and team cohesion, how to deal with issues with dress code and staff division, and concerns over student discipline and the staff reaction to how discipline's handled. Again, I hope you find value in this show, in value in the power of being coached.
I bet you have many of the same questions that JJ has, and I hope that they get answered for you today. And if you want to explore what it's like to be coached privately or to join the Ruckus Maker mastermind, go to betterleadersbetterschools.com and click that button. Book a call, set up 15 minutes with yours truly, and I'll get an understanding of the context of where you lead, challenges you face, how you want to grow. And if we mutually agree that this would be a good fit for you, then we'll talk about how to move forward. Thanks again for listening, and we'll be right back after a quick message from our show sponsors. Hey, Ruckus Maker, I'll make this quick. If you're listening to this message right now, you're missing out. When you subscribe to the Ruckus Maker newsletter on Substack, you get access to micro books focused on how to do school different tools and other resources that will help you make a Ruckus and do school different stories and case studies of the world's most legendary Ruckus Makers of all time. Access to my calendar to schedule coaching. Sessions, and you'll also get a bonus podcast. Content that won't be released on the. Main podcast feed and podcast episodes without any advertisements.
So if you love this show, if it's helped you grow and you want access to more tools and resources that will help you make a ruckus and do school different and become a paid subscriber at ruckusmakers.substack.com. That's ruckusmakerssubstack.com. As a principal with so much to do, you might be thinking constantly, where do I even start? It's a good question, and that's why I created a twelve month principal checklist just for you. When you download it for free, you're going to get a twelve month checklist that identifies general tasks that every campus will want to do each month. But the checklist also includes space where you can write campus specific items and two opportunities to reflect on what worked and what you want to continue doing and what didn't work and what you want to change or improve.
When you take action on this checklist for a year, you will have built a leadership playbook for your school, and you won't have to reinvent the wheel or feel like a first year principal all over again. Go to betterleadersbetterschools.com principal checklist to download for free right now. So long time listeners and Ruckus Makers definitely know Mitch weathers. He founded organized Binder, and he wrote a recent book, executive functions for every classroom. Now, this book is absolutely amazing. You know, he has a saying, you can't tier three or tier two yourself out of a tier one problem, and a missing component of much of tier one instruction is this idea of executive functions. When kids get it, everything is unlocked for them. They're able to succeed, achieve at much higher levels. Like I said, the book has done really well.
It's become a bestseller in less than six months. And to celebrate, Michael has put together a really generous opportunity, which is you could get 30% off the book in free shipping. So go. Go to organizedbinder.com/ruckus. And then when you check out, use the code RucKus 30. Now spell ruckus all caps and 30 for 30 to get that 30% discount and free shipping. So one more time, grab executive functions for every classroom. Go to organizedbinder.com/ruckus and use the code ruckus 30 for that discount and free shipping. Over 1 million teachers rely on IxL because it's empowering. It helps them make better decisions with reliable data, and it adapts instruction based on student performance. Get started [email protected]/Leaders. What does your school cafeteria make you think of? Chaos. Headaches? Quality food? Quest stands apart in the school food service industry as a partner that provides high quality food for your students. This is food you can be proud of. Learn more at Quest Food Management [email protected]. Or follow questfood on social media. That's questfms.com.
05:45
Danny
All right, I'm here with JJ, and I'm all yours. So what would serve you best today?
05:50
JJ
I signed up for this because. I'm six years into this job in this particular building, and I just have noticed this year things are just different. And I'm trying to figure out where that difference comes from. So I spent a lot of time, like, thinking about and reflecting on why it feels different? Or why are people acting differently? Or is it me? Like, am I acting differently? And I feel like we need, like, a resurgence of team building. Like, went from being, like, I got here and the school had no sense of, like, team and family and culture to, like, working so hard to establish that piece to this year feeling like we're not, like, cohesively all on the same page, working in the same direction anymore. And I'm like, I need help, like, figuring out how do you re steer that ship? Because this is new territory for me, right? Like, taking a group of people that had nothing and giving them something I was able to do, but I'm the person that gave it to them, and now it's gone, or there are pieces of it that are gone, right? There's still, like, a. I still think there's, like, a foundational part. And in all of the thinking and searching that I've done it, I can only pinpoint, like, one incident that happened last school year at the end, where it was a very, like, divisive feel here, when the staff was arguing about dress code and them against the district's dress policy and then making some extremely misogynistic and anti feminist comments and kind of extremely offensive things.
07:34
JJ
Like, they want all kids to wear crew shirts. Like, crew neck shirts. Like, I'm a mother of a child in school here. Why can't my daughter wear a v neck? Making comments about girls wearing crop tops. Like, I don't know what the big deal is. A teacher in this meeting said she felt bad for all the male teachers. Like, wolves. Like, just some really hurtful things. But I think what was the most hurtful is they created, like, a. What do you call it? They were signing off a petition excuse. I couldn't think of the word. They created a petition. Had all the staff that didn't agree with the dress code signed this petition. And I was like, when have we ever done that? because when you start doing things like that, it makes it feel like it's us against them and we're a team, and we could talk about things and figure out how we're going to move forward. Even if everybody doesn't agree, we're going to talk about them. And so I think that was, like, a starting point for, like, this group of very toxic teachers to feel very empowered. Although nothing changed, by the way. Like, were you still following? Yes, I'm letting the girls wear crop tops because who freaking cares? I. And then this year, they've done that. So I was very clear in the meeting, very emotional.
08:42
Danny
Another petition.
08:43
JJ
This year they did another one.
08:45
Danny
Dress code again or separate issue? What's the new issue?
08:49
JJ
The new issue was I had a student in November make a comment that he wanted to blow, like, myself and my assistant up. And he was in a, like, a heightened state of, like, anxiety because a kid had opened up an account of social media in his name and kind of put some, like, kind of inflammatory things on this page. He was really upset. And after that comment was made, a student came and told us that he said that to a friend. And then the student made some kind of suicidal thoughts. And our first line of defense was to make sure he was safe. And so we met with a counseling agency and the parents in an emergency type meeting. We suspended him for five days because we thought that was fair. The most important was just getting him mental health services. And somehow the staff found out, like, everything. And I'm not sure, like, they found out the comments that he made, because typically, like, when a kid is in discipline, I don't really share that with the teachers because they all make sorts of judgments about kids, you know? And so next thing I know, like, the union chairs in my office talking about, they want me to remove the student. I was like, whoa, he has due process, and I need to. I understand. I hear what you guys are saying, that you're nervous about him coming back. I hear all those things, but I need some time. He was on. Still on suspension. Then he had Covid. We had a couple, had, like, three or four days. Well, they clearly couldn't wait.
And I had another teacher also do another petition, which they refused to give me the names of those teachers. I wanted to see who signed it, but I had a teacher walk around and tell people that were going to bring a kid back that wanted to blow the building. And it was all sorts of inflammatory, like, the most ridiculous stories were told. And then we had another meeting with the union team, too. In the end, what I did was I leveraged the relationship I had with that parents to have them pick a new school because I did not think it was going to be safe for him to return to a building of adults who didn't want him here. And I'm a mom, and I'm a mom of black students, and the student was black. And it was a very emotional decision for me. It was hysterical on the phone with the parents because I just feel like I should never have to say to a parent that I don't feel like this school is safe for their kid to come back to. Now that was a private conversation. And somehow, like, parts of that conversation got leaked out, which is the door, I don't even know how. And so when we had a meeting with the union team again, I told them, like, I was honest I leveraged the relay, and I was crying in that meeting because I was upset. And I was like. And then you guys went and you made a petition. There's absolutely no benefit of the doubt, given that I know what I'm doing, that I wouldn't do everything in my power to ensure that they were safe and comfortable.
11:32
JJ
But sometimes those decisions take time. They're not like, a. I can't just make stuff happen in the blink of an eye. Like, I need time to process through how it's going to look and what's the turnout of that going to be and what's the consequences of those that we see and don't see. And it hurts my feelings when they go back and they. And maybe I should stop being so emotional about it, but it hurts my feelings when they. They go and do those petitions because it makes it seem like it's them versus, you know, myself and my. In my assistant principal. And that's not the culture that I'm trying to build. And so I think those are two, like, significant things that have never happened here before, but it happened twice. And the second time, I was really ticked because I asked you guys not to do that the first time. Just come and have a conversation with me. Your petition signing that a kid shouldn't return doesn't trump a kid's due process and their rights. So, like, nothing you're gonna do is gonna magically make a kid get excited from a building. There has to be a proper plan in place to make that happen, to make sure the kid's treated justly and fairly, you know, which I don't. It's, like, missed. But that entire piece is missed because they so desire want one thing. So sometimes I feel like the game of telephone that they all play. Every time somebody picks up the phone, another piece and part is added to that story that's even more grossly untrue than the previous one.
But I think it's, like, a little bit toxic to what we're building because they're building a sense of untrusted me, and I don't know where that's come from.
13:10
Danny
I think it's normal to take it personally, right? Cause it does hurt. It's ouch for sure. And, you know, I don't know if. I don't know how it wouldn't hurt, right. But the choice that you have is, like, how long do you hold on to that? You know, just like teachers holding on to whatever issue or every human being, you know, that's going through something personally. This is where for me, like, my interest in practice of, like, mindfulness and meditation helps, right. If you close your eyes for any amount of time, what you realize is that they call it monkey mind, and all this stuff is just happening, most of which maybe all you're not in control of, right. All the thoughts, and they change like that. And so that's something I think about, you know?
13:56
Danny
I mean, even the other day, the day I was observing my moods in the cardinal, and I was. I don't even remember why I was mad. I can't even tell you. But I got irked by something, and that shifted. I watched it shift to, oh, this day's awesome all within a few minutes so things change. The petitions and that kind of stuff are interesting in that I feel like maybe they're trying to exercise some kind of power to be heard, right? And the thing that stinks in terms of being a Ruckus Maker and a school leader is that even in cultures, like, for six years, and you've built this sense of team, and you know, I know you. You've accomplished great stuff.. Even within that, things happen that, you know, people are people. It's a hard job.
14:55
Danny
And so I'm trying to say that it's normal, right? Like, that's normal. I'm curious. Like, so we got the dress code thing. We had the student threat type thing. And what I heard you say is that you, like, don't do the petition, come to me. That's the ideal scenario for you. Do you have examples of when they have come to you? Or. I'm also curious about what the channels are? How have you trained them, shown them the way to come to you when there's this stuff?
15:26
JJ
I think it's really difficult because obviously, like, we're big, we have a union representative. We are a union district, and we have, like, a union team that's all elected people. So it's the chair and then, like, five other people. And for the most part, that group of people has been pretty core since I've got here. But I've had five union chairs in six years. Five, four or five union chairs in six years. And everybody does this job differently, but everybody looks at it differently. Everybody tackles the staff in a different way, everybody has a different relationship with me in a different way. And this year we're in a weird spot because someone is sitting in this seat that really didn't want it. But I had a teacher who left the district and nobody wanted it, and so she took it because she has experience, and I actually find her to be extremely fair. I think 99% of the time she's fair. There is sometimes a skew where she lets people kind of influence. I think what she knows is best, and I get a little bit of that. So I think always in the past, like, for years here, we never even had monthly union meetings. Like, we never did. And then all of a sudden, a couple years ago, one of the chairs was like, we need to, like, meet at once a month as a team. And I was like, fine, that's fine. So most of the issues that come, like, building wide issues will come from those monthly meetings, right?
16:48
JJ
They send us an agenda before time that's aligned to articles and their contract, and we. We have a piece of the agenda, the admin side, and then they have their side, and it is littered with things that I would say, like, are in the contract, but also, like, non contractual things too. Sometimes they're just, like, there's whatever. Just issues they're having. So that is the main channel for us to have conversations. And those are always interesting because it's really hard to ascertain, 20 staff, or is this, like, is this, like, one person wanting four people? Three? I never know the magnitude of the complaint.
17:25
JJ
That sometimes can be, like, difficult for me because it's not that I care about the person, but if if one out of 70 people has complained, is this really, like, a front burner issue? I think. And I can't. I. They'll never say, so it's always difficult for me to navigate that space sometimes in those meetings. So that would be one. Since I got here, I've always told the teachers that my door is open all the time. They're happy to come in unless it's closed. But I keep my door open all the time, even when I'm actively working here, they need to pop in and say something that they can do. So. So that's never changed in six years.
17:57
JJ
I'm always available, and I think the relationship that I have with, like, any union chairs, I try to be proactive, right? Like, any issues that I see that might be, like, kind of sticky and weird, I try to. I try to get to them first before it blows up or, you know, even, like, it's crazy cold here, right? And one of my classrooms was cold. In cold classrooms it is in the contract. And so I called the classroom, and I had them move, like, to the library for the day because it was too cold now. It wasn't below where the contract shed. We were one degree above where they should be. But I called the person and I said, hey, just give me a heads up. It's, like, not at the limit, but we're so close. I'm just relocating to class.
18:37
JJ
I just wanted to keep you in the loop because that also could have been, like, Jessica didn't want to move them, and nobody started to. Like, there's a huge amount of things that I never said or never did. And so those channels, I think, are, like, the open ways that we communicate back and forth. I tried to find myself to be an over communicator because this was something that this staff complained about when I came to, the principal never communicated, that they never knew what was going on. And so we have a communication board in the main office that we fill out every single day with staff news, like, who's out? Who's covering who? Are there any assemblies? Are there field trips? Are we indoor recess? Are we outdoor recess?
19:16
JJ
Those big school communications so that everybody's on the same page all the time. I sometimes feel like I over communicate, and they under communicate, and when they choose to communicate with me now we have, like, an issue, like, where I'm like, could we. I'm like, could we handle this, like, three weeks?
19:34
Danny
Be more proactive?
19:35
JJ
Yeah, could we be more proactive so that we don't get to this point? Like, if three staff members have come and said something, then come and say something to me, because I'd rather get in front of it now than behind it, because when I'm going from behind, it's like I'm playing defense, and I don't like to be, like, in that stance all the time. It's not, like, a comfortable place to be all the time.
19:58
Danny
To play deep, like, to understand you correctly, to play defense, like, when you're here and stuff at the union meeting, and it seems to come out of nowhere because nobody told you. Is that.
20:07
JJ
Yes. That's so frustrating.I didn't even know this was an issue, but I understand the person is bringing issues. But sometimes we're so far into it, like, it's been, like, festering with a group of people for so long, but then by the time I get to it's all these emotions and extra things attached. We're like, if three weeks ago you guys would have said something, I would have taken care of the problem and we would have. We could have moved on or during this meeting, we could have checked in, right? We could have checked in to see how things were going. And maybe that's something I need to say. Like, we have one on Thursday, but maybe that's something I need to say.
20:45
Danny
Well, tell me what you're going to say. And who are you saying it to, the union people or the full staff?
20:49
JJ
So I would say it to the union people first. Actually, it's next Thursday. I don't know what the agenda is, so I don't know what they're going to bring up. I'm sure it'll be something, but I just think the last meeting we had was around that student, and it was a very, like, uncomfortable, emotional meeting about that, kiddo. It was so uncomfortable that they were like, we want to be a part of, like, behavior consequences. No, I can't be privy to all sorts of these. Like, it's not your role. Like, well, you handle.
21:20
Danny
Teachers handle it in the classroom. They are the. That's their domain and they are number one. And if it gets to you, guess to you.
21:29
JJ
And then, and I do tell them what students are suspended here? So here's a good example of communication. They felt like before a couple years ago, kids were being suspended. They had no idea. So we're like, whoa, every time we suspend a kid, we'll put it in an email to whoever sees that child, right? So if they're on a team of multiple teachers, all the encore teachers get it. My planning center person, my secretary gets it, my security officer gets it, right? Everybody gets the email. It's the student. They're infractions. The total number of days they'll be out. Their return date is in the email. And then just a reminder that either to save work for the student, for them to complete, send in phone with the sibling. In what class? My older students are in school, the G. So, you know this. Kids can access their work that way. So here, that's a good example of hey, this is not working for us. Sure. Look at it, we can fix that. This is a super easy fix. And I probably think in like five years we probably haven't sent an email like eight times. Like we've missed it. Like we forgot to send an email to. So that, I mean, that's pretty, to me that's a pretty good track record. But I was more thinking that I would have the conversation with the union team to just be like, this is a place for us to discuss issues and problems.
22:37
JJ
But if there is a big issue that keeps popping up, my preference would be that one of you guys find a way and come and see me before this meeting so that I can get ahead of it instead of feeling behind it. And then what was small is now huge. And when it gets huge, all these people have their own interpretations of what happened and then it's messy. It's like school drama for sure.
23:01
Danny
Yeah. A few things I'm thinking about, like everything I share, it's always keep what's going to feel right to you in alignment with who you are throughout the rest, you know, experiment maybe with some of the ideas. If you get a good result, then great. What makes an assessment effective? I would argue giving teachers access to quick, reliable and useful results that inform the next best steps for teaching. And that's where I excel really stands out. Teachers get powerful insights into student performance on a daily basis so they can address issues the moment they arise. Imagine that. Ingesting instruction in real time before it's too late. Your teachers have a tool that helps them to be more effective and your students continue to grow. Check it out for [email protected]. Dot slash leaders that's ixl.com leaders. Here's a few reasons I love quest food management services. Quest provides high quality scratch made food in k twelve schools and universities across the country. Quest provides solutions for school cafeterias of.
24:15
Danny
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24:55
Danny
Being open for communication and you got the open door policy, you know, you have your staff meetings, you have the union meeting. So one thing you could do is create, like, more frequency, potentially, with union meetings. Not like the full fly full. I don't know, if you meet for an hour, let's say a month, maybe it's like 15 minutes, check in. But is there a way, like, if we increase the frequency, like, you know, just like, let's say with me and my wife, right, if we talked once a month, there'd probably be some stuff that she needs to get off her chest. But if I hopefully talk to her more frequently, I'd have a sense of what's going on in her world. Right. And so maybe that would help with being more proactive.
25:40
Danny
I wonder if, in a JJ type of way, what would it be like to address the staff? Hey, I've noticed some things in the last six years, recently. Here's how I'm interpreting it. And to be honest, it's bugging me and it bugs me because, you know, how much I care about you all, how much I care about the campus, the kids. And it just seems. It seems steps in the opposite direction of where we wanna be going. Now, again, my interpretation could be off. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, but here's what I would want, and I think it's in service of all of us, not just, like, a personal preference, but in the case of issues, if there was a way to address them more proactively before they turn into bigger things, I want to be able to do that. So I don't know what real talk from you, what the staff might look like, and if they'd be open to that. And now I'm going to. I'm going to share a story. It'll take just a minute to read. It's called good or bad luck, right? Comes from a book here called how to see. And here's how the story goes. One day, a farmer went to the field and found that his horse had run away.
26:51
Danny
The people in the village said, oh, what bad luck. And the next day, the horse returned with two other horses, and the village people said, what good fortune. Then the farmer's son was thrown from one of the horses and broke his leg. The villagers expressed their sympathy. How unfortunate. Soon after, a war broke out and young men from the village were being drafted. But because the farmer's son had a broken leg, he was the only one not drafted. Now, the village people told the farmer that his son's broken leg was really good luck. It's not possible to judge any event as simply fortunate or unfortunate, good or bad, as this age old story shows, you must travel throughout all of time and space to know the true impact of any event.
27:39
Danny
Every success contains some difficulties, and every failure contributes to increased wisdom or future success. Every event is both fortunate and unfortunate. Fortunate and unfortunate, good and bad. These concepts exist only in our perceptions. So when I share that with you, what does that make you think?
28:00
JJ
How true? Well, first of all, how true? Second of all, it makes me think of how fast we are to judge situations without knowing, like, the entire picture. It made me think about my student, how fast we were to judge that student and his choices, not knowing that there's, like, this entire world that's going on outside of that. And, you know, how do we get people to slow down and think before they talk or process before they react to something or seek to find out all that you can before we pass judgment or create our own perceptions in our mind? Listen, I'm even, like, responsible for acting this way. Like, the amount of information that's thrown my way on a daily basis. Like, I make all sorts of assumptions, too. I got a new kindergarten.
28:50
JJ
And the first thing the mom said was, like, first, I didn't even know we were getting another new student, but, like, seven kindergarteners since the week before break. Like, that's way too many students. It's just a lot of kids. But the mom, the first thing she said was like, I'm so excited. Because he got kicked out of his last school. Filling my brain. Like, I wasn't seeking to understand anything at that moment. I was like, I can't take one more kindergarten that has behaviors like, how many more kids can I have? And then we. I talked to her for a little while, but even at that minute. Interesting that she would lead with that. I did say to her, I appreciate your transparency.
29:24
Danny
Yeah, for sure.
29:25
JJ
How many parents come and, like, you were like, amazing, and then you're like, wow. Like, it was an interesting first day. and then all of a sudden, like, all the, like, little truths start seeping out through these little conversations we started having. But she first. That's what she led with, like, totally, you know, kicked out of his last school. I do think, like, if I had to, like, characterize my staff, jumping to conclusions would be a top three character trait. Like, I believe that's at the top.
29:55
Danny
So maybe that's a story, you know, that you potentially share with them. You'll get a readout from the call. Like, a transcript from our call automatically once we hang up. So you'll have it if you want to share it. And I wonder if that part of our work in the future, it'll be always whatever's top of mind and most important to you, but maybe something to brainstorm on in terms of how to shift mindset and be less in terms of snap judgments and assumptions and that kind of thing. That's solvable for sure.
30:25
JJ
So I have this thing on my board. We've had a crazy busy year. Like, we had a lot of staff meetings this year. The district has this, like, equity training. We've been kind of engaged in it, a lot of it. It's not great, but we've been in it. But one of the topics, like on my board over here, of things we wanted to cover last year but never got to was gracious assumptions. Like, so clearly, like, that type of culture is here. Right?
30:49
Danny
Was that before the petition?
30:51
JJ
Yes, actually, my intern, who's now one of my kindergarten teachers, we worked with her for two years before when she was finishing her program for her masters. And we were having a conversation in here last year, and she was like, it's gracious. Like everybody needs. It's like gracious assumptions. And she talked to us about it. That was a phrase they use on her college swim team that we need to, like, have if we're going to assume things, we need to do so graciously that we might not have all the information or we might be missing pieces or we don't know the whole story before we come to these sweeping assumptions about something or somebody. And so we put. It's like number three on my board of things to cover, like, in a.
31:31
JJ
A hard conversation, like our hard conversation series with the staff. And we just haven't got to it. But it is a problem.
31:38
Danny
Yeah. So my coaching question is, what would make it the number one priority so that you get to it and it doesn't keep getting kicked down the can down the road.Because obviously it's something that y'all need to work on, and that's totally fine. No, no schools. Perfect, right? Anybody that says so, they're. They're full of it. And I am totally fake and a liar, but everybody's working on something and that's great. Like, you know, we started. The job's hard, right. It can be easier, but it will never be easy. And you wouldn't want it if our job was easy and there weren't things to work on. How boring.
32:15
JJ
So boring.
32:16
Danny
How unfulfilling, you know? So to address these things and to see growth in your team, can you imagine just for a moment, like, well, yeah, just tell me, like, how will that feel when you get to a place where the team is now making gracious assumptions? School's not perfect, but, man, we have grown in this area specifically, how would that feel?
32:37
JJ
I think it would feel amazing if we could slow down a little bit. Right?
32:42
Danny
What would need to be true? That's one of my favorite questions. What would need to be true for you all to slow down a bit?
32:50
JJ
Time. I think a little bit would be me.
32:54
Danny
More about that.
32:56
JJ
Like, fFme to be, like, vulnerable with the staff and let them know, like, I'm still working on these things. When we're talking about bias, like, I have tons of bias. I have to check my bias. Every single day when I come to work in my personal life, I check my bias. I want to check my own mom today, sending me a picture from the beach. Like, lady, what? Working, like, negative twelve, and you're sending me a picture from the beach. Like, I just, like, I was like, let me check all of myself about all the things that are running through my mind. I think so too. Anytime I think we have these conversations, for it to permeate means that I'm vulnerable with everybody. And I myself admit that I don't always assume graciously either, or. Or lead with the best intentions, because I'm moving at the speed of light. And I need to learn sometimes to just, like, say, I need a second. I need a minute, I need a day. I need three days to really think about this and process this. Or, you know, what's running through my mind right now is probably not the best. And so I need some time to really sit in that and then come back to you when I'm a little bit more clear headed or I have more of, like, a focused direction on how I can answer that.
34:08
JJ
First it would start, you know, first I think it always starts, like, with myself and my, you know, my other leader is to understand that we, too, fall into these buckets of making bad choices and bad decisions and assuming the worst or over assuming. Sometimes I under assume, too. So I think it starts with me modeling what that looks like for the adults in this building, too. You know, the interesting thing is, I think I give more kids a gracious assumption than I do adults. And part of that is also like an age bias that I have. Right? Like, they're little, they don't know what's going on.
34:46
Danny
You're 60, they might be ten years old.
34:48
JJ
Emotionally, though, that's so true.
34:50
Danny
So they got it. They got wrinkles in the old person's body. Some people are stunted, they're stunted, they're not mature. I'm not going to suggest that you psychoanalyze the staff. No, yeah, no, but that's true. You know what I mean? Yes, but that's an assumption there, too. You even said it was age bias, but, yeah, they look old, but maturity wise, they're an infant.
35:15
JJ
Ever had those thoughts when you're, like, working with staff and you're like, how did you make it this far? Like.
35:21
Danny
Like, in life?
35:22
JJ
Yes, like, how did you make it this far in life? Like, thinking like that or, like, acting like that. But then at the same time as I'm, like, having that thought running through, like, what's in my brain, the other side of my brain is thinking, what happened to you?
35:35
Danny
Yeah. And I think, so that's the superpower to lean into, is when you could get more into compassion. On the empathy side of things. It's hard to be compassionate and judgmental at the same time. And I don't know that this is a chief Ruckus Maker. Instinctual, which is my strength. Right? Like, data shows that I'm really good at intuition, but I don't have the research to back up what I'm about to say. But I think, you know, we read each other. You know what I mean? If I didn't like you would know and I wouldn't have to say anything. But you know how much I care about you, right? And so our staff picks up, even when we're slightly judging. We're like, my wife, she has a nasty habit. I'm going to air her business here.
36:23
Danny
She rolls her eyes at me sometimes, and I know at that moment she's thinking, you're an idiot. Like, how could you ever do or think whatever just happened? And I'll be like, oh, my God, she just rolled my eyes. And then I always ask her, "Do you do that to your colleagues or your students? Your face betrays you. So now that's something that you can see. But even if you're a great poker face and all that kind of stuff, I think because of, like, the animal side of things, we could pick up on these little nuances that are invisible, it's not a word. It's not an eye roll, but I can tell if you care.
37:04
JJ
I think my assistant person, we talk all the time. Like, some people, she's. Are drawn to her. More than they're drawn to me. LThis connection that we have with different adults and not that it's an people that are drawn to her that they don't like me. You know, I don't think it's about that. But I wonder about how those adults feel that they're not drawn to either one of us. Right? Like, I'm not your cup of tea, and. And she's not your cup of tea. You don't have any cups of tea here. Like, what does that feel like every day to come to work and know you're not connecting to somebody, maybe lonely, adversarial? Yeah. Like, does it make you, like, start harboring feelings that become, like, kind of toxic or. And then are you trying to leech people into that, you know, that group, like, that toxic group of, like, adults anywhere, right? It doesn't have to be in a school. It could be in a family, in a church. It doesn't matter. Those are powerful groups of people that can be very damaging. But it's trying to figure out, like, your. Why? Where are we? Was it previous principals who had done you wrong and you're still, after all these years, not trusting me? Is it the way I do certain things that you don't latch onto? Is it the belief you believe I'm not genuine in the things that I do? What is it? Understanding those pieces would be nice to know, too. Over the years, I've had staff that I've worked really hard to build a relationship with. When I first met them, I was like, all right, nice to meet you, too, type of thing. And I worked hard to build a stronger relationship with and connect with them. And some people, I've done those things, and I'm still at the fence, the gate still six years later, still closing, and I don't know what else I could do because I feel like I am doing things genuinely. I first got here, teachers were blown away that I asked them to help them set their rooms up. Can I help you? Like, can I help you put some stuff up? And they're like, what and that was not me being extra. That was really who I was. I had other principals that used to walk around and ask how they could help set our classrooms up so it wasn't like a far stretch, but it was so new to them or all the ways we go to celebrate them and appreciate them. You know, we have the planning for the week before Christmas. Winter break is so extensive. The planning for teacher appreciation is so extensive because I truly believe that they. If I could do it every week, if I could feed you guys lunch every week, I would feed you lunch every week. You know, if I could do a lot of things for you guys, I would if the money was there, I would do them. But I'm not sure that some people feel that's genuine or I'm trying to, like, buy them where I'm just truly, like, appreciating what you do every day. I don't know.
39:57
Danny
Some of those things you just can't have you do is going to show up differently for different people. They're going to see it in different ways, and that's out of your control.There's a good book called Courage to be disliked. And the author has this conversation between a philosopher and his student. And they tell the story of this psychologist, Joseph Adler, which I've never heard of until these books. But I guess he was around the same time as Freud. And who's the other guy? I'm blanking right now, but there were three big psychologists. Oh, Jung, Carl Jung as well. So Freud, Carl Jung, and then Joseph Adler, I guess, are the least known. But his big idea was that everybody has a task, which is how he praised it. And essentially, as much as I do care about you and the compassion I have, hearing all the stuff you're going through, like, that's your task to figure out, you know, my task. And in my superpower, let's hold this space, do some coaching. But ultimately, you know, you have to figure it out. That's why I asked a lot of questions, a lot of wonderings, you know, if I have a tool or something that's going to help you out, I'll prescribe that. But mostly it's like for you to figure it out. Same thing with them. You do a lunch, you know where it's coming from, but it's their task, like how they relate to it, you know? And if they want to tell some story, that's not a gracious assumption. It says more about them than it does you know? One thing I don't want to lose a thread on because I know we're coming close to time. I appreciate the piece where you said, I need to be potentially more vulnerable or authentic, you know, do it first. And something I've been thinking about throughout our whole conversation, and it was left out of the story that I. That I read you about the horse. But in other retellings of the story, the farmer actually responds to his neighbors. And when they say, oh, how unfortunate, or how lucky, his response is always the same. His response is always maybe because it's kind of like, well, let's see. I'm wondering how you might try that on principle when the next petition comes around. Because it bugs you, and I understand why it's valid, but what would it be like? Oh, well, it's just a piece of paper that people have put their names on, and that's it. Maybe it's not a big indication that the culture's gone the wrong way. Maybe it's not, you know, all these things that potentially you're layering on top of it. Potentially. Something at least consider.
I do like the idea of having a conversation about my feelings and kind of where I've been and thinking through that a little bit more. It's not something I could just be tomorrow. I'm going to do something I want to process and think a little bit more. But I do think it's important to have that conversation. And I really like the idea of having, like, a 15 minute scheduled weekly check in with me. With just the chair. Hey, are things popping up that we could try to hit and handle now? I love that idea. And see if she's game to it. It would really cut down on some of the time of our other meetings. Cause we could just have, like, a check in and go back and check about things that she and I have handled. And sometimes I think you shouldn't be.
Danny
Surprised if you're doing proactive communication. That's a win for the faculty. It's a win for you know? So if you're up for it, I think that'll be really great.
43:49
JJ
I love that idea, but I also think it keeps some issues private, and then what we tell the rest of the people on that team is just the information they need to know. Sometimes you start adding extra people. It doesn't always vibrate,because everybody has a different set of stories from there. I love that, and I love thinking through some, like, how would I have that conversation with the staff?
44:14
Danny
Brilliant. We're at time, and so JJ just said, as we close this down, what do you think was the most helpful part of our conversation today?
44:23
JJ
All of that. Is that what you so I just think, number one, being able to talk to somebody that is not here so has no, like, completely, like, unbiased opinion, right? Like, you're just listening to things that I say. And that's helpful to giving me things to think about or wonderings or having my me switch my perspective on how it might be coming from the other side is very helpful. I think it is most helpful because you don't know my staff and my people. You're not making decisions. You're not asking me things based upon what you know of them. You're just asking great, thought provoking questions about how I would react or how I'm thinking about it. I appreciate all those things that this was great.
45:11
Danny
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